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	<title>Comments on: Lessons for Girls</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: m Andrea</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-561331</link>
		<dc:creator>m Andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-561331</guid>
		<description>Dearest Historiann,

HA! A feminist historian!  Just what I was looking for!

I shall peruse your luscious offerings and then come back to, in no particular order, pester you with questions and shower you with compliments.

Sincerely, with all due respect and regards, etc.
meeeeeeeeee

lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dearest Historiann,</p>
<p>HA! A feminist historian!  Just what I was looking for!</p>
<p>I shall peruse your luscious offerings and then come back to, in no particular order, pester you with questions and shower you with compliments.</p>
<p>Sincerely, with all due respect and regards, etc.<br />
meeeeeeeeee</p>
<p>lol</p>
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		<title>By: Lessons for Girls 16: Romance is for Fun. And: Hold On To Your Computer, House, and Car. &#171; Professor Zero</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-521324</link>
		<dc:creator>Lessons for Girls 16: Romance is for Fun. And: Hold On To Your Computer, House, and Car. &#171; Professor Zero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-521324</guid>
		<description>[...] which is an honor. Historiann&#8217;s title for my post, part of her feminist series Lessons for Girls, is &#8220;Romance Is For Your Pleasure and Enjoyment.&#8221; I offer a revised and expanded [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] which is an honor. Historiann&#8217;s title for my post, part of her feminist series Lessons for Girls, is &#8220;Romance Is For Your Pleasure and Enjoyment.&#8221; I offer a revised and expanded [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lessons for Girls #16: Romance is for your pleasure and enjoyment : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-520215</link>
		<dc:creator>Lessons for Girls #16: Romance is for your pleasure and enjoyment : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-520215</guid>
		<description>[...] Zero has posted an excellent addition to our occasional series, Lessons for Girls, which I have entitled &#8220;Romance is for your pleasure and enjoyment.&#8221;  Go read the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Zero has posted an excellent addition to our occasional series, Lessons for Girls, which I have entitled &#8220;Romance is for your pleasure and enjoyment.&#8221;  Go read the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Professor Zero</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-520182</link>
		<dc:creator>Professor Zero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-520182</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s perhaps too specific, and it might be a subset of a more general topic, but I thought of another one. I can&#039;t post it on my blog because my parents read that.

Part A: dates, and &quot;relationships,&quot; should be more relaxed/pleasant than ordeal-like. Part B: it&#039;s OK to be in them for you (as opposed to in service to the other person). 

I remember that I believed these things in the 8th grade and disagreed with the nun (yes!) who was called into our public school to teach sex education to girls. She said dating was to find out who you&#039;d like to marry. I had never been on a date but I suspected the purpose of them was to go do something interesting and fun with an interesting and fun person. 

Since my mid thirties, however, I&#039;ve had recurrent trouble with men who (a) think one should have sex to serve and please them; (b) are not sure one should have it to please oneself, unless that can benefit them with some kind of visual show; (c) are convinced women want them and that they can therefore get away with various types of poor behavior and not be frozen out.

Eventually this shook my sense of reality that I went to see a therapist, who reminded me of ideas (A) and (B) (in the second paragraph). Even though these ideas had once seemed obvious to me, it was amazing to me by that point to have someone confirm that they really weren&#039;t &quot;too selfish.&quot;

Recently I&#039;ve realized that although part of the reason I try to understand these people and figure out what is going on is that I&#039;m the guest in the culture, another part has to do with my earliest (pre feminist, pre 1967 or so) upbringing. 

According to that upbringing, managing an ordeal-like relationship was part of one&#039;s job in the same way as managing events like awkward yet necessary work related social events (e.g. job candidate dinners with colleagues who hate each other) is part of my job now.

So, girls: dates, and &quot;relationships,&quot; should be more relaxed/pleasant than ordeal-like, and it&#039;s OK to be in them for you (as opposed to in service to the other person). 

Corollary: beware of advice about how you should &quot;work on&quot; relationships and how they are &quot;work.&quot; Also beware of advice about how you need to compromise more, and how the burden of &quot;communication&quot; is on you. 

My friendships don&#039;t seem like work and struggle, they seem like pleasure and growth; my better relationships with men have felt like that too; I would really beware of all the warnings about the &quot;work&quot; of a relationship just because romance is involved; I think these are a trap.

(Perhaps that advice was actually invented by men who are telling themselves there is &quot;work&quot; in a relationship because what they are learning is, women are actual people, not dolls or something ... ?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s perhaps too specific, and it might be a subset of a more general topic, but I thought of another one. I can&#8217;t post it on my blog because my parents read that.</p>
<p>Part A: dates, and &#8220;relationships,&#8221; should be more relaxed/pleasant than ordeal-like. Part B: it&#8217;s OK to be in them for you (as opposed to in service to the other person). </p>
<p>I remember that I believed these things in the 8th grade and disagreed with the nun (yes!) who was called into our public school to teach sex education to girls. She said dating was to find out who you&#8217;d like to marry. I had never been on a date but I suspected the purpose of them was to go do something interesting and fun with an interesting and fun person. </p>
<p>Since my mid thirties, however, I&#8217;ve had recurrent trouble with men who (a) think one should have sex to serve and please them; (b) are not sure one should have it to please oneself, unless that can benefit them with some kind of visual show; (c) are convinced women want them and that they can therefore get away with various types of poor behavior and not be frozen out.</p>
<p>Eventually this shook my sense of reality that I went to see a therapist, who reminded me of ideas (A) and (B) (in the second paragraph). Even though these ideas had once seemed obvious to me, it was amazing to me by that point to have someone confirm that they really weren&#8217;t &#8220;too selfish.&#8221;</p>
<p>Recently I&#8217;ve realized that although part of the reason I try to understand these people and figure out what is going on is that I&#8217;m the guest in the culture, another part has to do with my earliest (pre feminist, pre 1967 or so) upbringing. </p>
<p>According to that upbringing, managing an ordeal-like relationship was part of one&#8217;s job in the same way as managing events like awkward yet necessary work related social events (e.g. job candidate dinners with colleagues who hate each other) is part of my job now.</p>
<p>So, girls: dates, and &#8220;relationships,&#8221; should be more relaxed/pleasant than ordeal-like, and it&#8217;s OK to be in them for you (as opposed to in service to the other person). </p>
<p>Corollary: beware of advice about how you should &#8220;work on&#8221; relationships and how they are &#8220;work.&#8221; Also beware of advice about how you need to compromise more, and how the burden of &#8220;communication&#8221; is on you. </p>
<p>My friendships don&#8217;t seem like work and struggle, they seem like pleasure and growth; my better relationships with men have felt like that too; I would really beware of all the warnings about the &#8220;work&#8221; of a relationship just because romance is involved; I think these are a trap.</p>
<p>(Perhaps that advice was actually invented by men who are telling themselves there is &#8220;work&#8221; in a relationship because what they are learning is, women are actual people, not dolls or something &#8230; ?)</p>
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		<title>By: Lessons for Girls 7: It&#8217;s okay if not everyone likes you &#124; Geeky Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-514057</link>
		<dc:creator>Lessons for Girls 7: It&#8217;s okay if not everyone likes you &#124; Geeky Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-514057</guid>
		<description>[...] Historiann and Dr. Crazy and others have started this meme, and it&#8217;s a perfect meme to follow up on Mother&#8217;s Day. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Historiann and Dr. Crazy and others have started this meme, and it&#8217;s a perfect meme to follow up on Mother&#8217;s Day. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: It&#8217;s Back-to-Girl School time, kids! : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-406813</link>
		<dc:creator>It&#8217;s Back-to-Girl School time, kids! : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-406813</guid>
		<description>[...] is apropos of the Lessons for Girls seriesthat Historiann initiated and is archiving. I’ve enjoyed this series immensely and have wanted to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is apropos of the Lessons for Girls seriesthat Historiann initiated and is archiving. I’ve enjoyed this series immensely and have wanted to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lessons for Girls #14: Don&#8217;t just ask, insist on help : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-375164</link>
		<dc:creator>Lessons for Girls #14: Don&#8217;t just ask, insist on help : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-375164</guid>
		<description>[...] a post called &#8220;Don&#8217;t just ask, insist on help (even if it makes you feel weird),&#8221; fourteenth in our popular series, Lessons for Girls, Sisyphus writes that a roommate of hers, &#8220;Brilliant Grad,&#8221; was in the same program [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a post called &#8220;Don&#8217;t just ask, insist on help (even if it makes you feel weird),&#8221; fourteenth in our popular series, Lessons for Girls, Sisyphus writes that a roommate of hers, &#8220;Brilliant Grad,&#8221; was in the same program [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lessons for Girls, #13: You are not what you wear. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-367659</link>
		<dc:creator>Lessons for Girls, #13: You are not what you wear. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-367659</guid>
		<description>[...] Lessons for Girls?  Well, Roxie, the terminally ill wire-haired terrier got busy living this week enough to make [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Lessons for Girls?  Well, Roxie, the terminally ill wire-haired terrier got busy living this week enough to make [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lesson for girls: if you don&#8217;t ask, you don&#8217;t get. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-331080</link>
		<dc:creator>Lesson for girls: if you don&#8217;t ask, you don&#8217;t get. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-331080</guid>
		<description>[...] has posted another lesson for girls:  If you don&#8217;t ask, you don&#8217;t get.  As in, negotiate your salary, don&#8217;t just [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has posted another lesson for girls:  If you don&#8217;t ask, you don&#8217;t get.  As in, negotiate your salary, don&#8217;t just [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Another lesson for girls: love your body : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/lessons-for-girls/comment-page-1/#comment-326530</link>
		<dc:creator>Another lesson for girls: love your body : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 02:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?page_id=5214#comment-326530</guid>
		<description>[...] adolescent and college student health history, Knitting Clio, has written an utterly appropriate lesson for girls, number 11:  &#8220;Love your body.&#8221;  She adds some thoughts too about Brooke Shields, and even [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] adolescent and college student health history, Knitting Clio, has written an utterly appropriate lesson for girls, number 11:  &#8220;Love your body.&#8221;  She adds some thoughts too about Brooke Shields, and even [...]</p>
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