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	<title>Comments on: Of course we can&#8217;t even talk about limiting gun ownership now. . .</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1215311</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2012 18:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1215311</guid>
		<description>I use the Second Amendment as an example of how fuzzy thinking leads to unclear writing, and to all kinds of confusion and grief.  My students seem to really get it when they try to figure out exactly what the 2nd A says.  (It&#039;s far from transparent.)  

How much political and social turmoil would we have been spared if the so-called &quot;Founding Fathers&quot; had been bothered to write that one up as clearly as the First or the Fourth Amendments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I use the Second Amendment as an example of how fuzzy thinking leads to unclear writing, and to all kinds of confusion and grief.  My students seem to really get it when they try to figure out exactly what the 2nd A says.  (It&#8217;s far from transparent.)  </p>
<p>How much political and social turmoil would we have been spared if the so-called &#8220;Founding Fathers&#8221; had been bothered to write that one up as clearly as the First or the Fourth Amendments?</p>
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		<title>By: Monocle Man</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1215214</link>
		<dc:creator>Monocle Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2012 17:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1215214</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m no philologist, but I would say that a close reading of the Second Amendment and its history is a fascinating interdisciplinary teaching opportunity.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1995/sep/21/to-keep-and-bear-arms/?pagination=false

Latin, colonial history, classical military history, historiography, it&#039;s all there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m no philologist, but I would say that a close reading of the Second Amendment and its history is a fascinating interdisciplinary teaching opportunity.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1995/sep/21/to-keep-and-bear-arms/?pagination=false" rel="nofollow">http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1995/sep/21/to-keep-and-bear-arms/?pagination=false</a></p>
<p>Latin, colonial history, classical military history, historiography, it&#8217;s all there.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1213909</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2012 03:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1213909</guid>
		<description>At least the parents didn&#039;t have to identify their own children&#039;s bodies.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://abcnews.go.com/US/connecticut-school-shooting-victims-shot-11-times/story?id=17981351#.UM1ELHfheSp&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;From a report at AB&lt;/a&gt;C:



&lt;blockquote&gt;The names of the children slain Friday in the school were released today.

To carry out the identifications, [Chief Medical Examiner H. Wayne] Carver [II] said they &quot;did not bring the families and the bodies into contact.&quot; He said the identifications were made through photographs of the children&#039;s faces.

&quot;It&#039;s easier on the families,&quot; he said.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least the parents didn&#8217;t have to identify their own children&#8217;s bodies.  <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/US/connecticut-school-shooting-victims-shot-11-times/story?id=17981351#.UM1ELHfheSp" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">From a report at AB</a>C:</p>
<blockquote><p>The names of the children slain Friday in the school were released today.</p>
<p>To carry out the identifications, [Chief Medical Examiner H. Wayne] Carver [II] said they &#8220;did not bring the families and the bodies into contact.&#8221; He said the identifications were made through photographs of the children&#8217;s faces.</p>
<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s easier on the families,&#8221; he said.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: truffula</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1213747</link>
		<dc:creator>truffula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2012 01:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1213747</guid>
		<description>Nicholas Kristof on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-do-we-have-the-courage-to-stop-this.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;public health crisis&lt;/a&gt; of gun violence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas Kristof on the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-do-we-have-the-courage-to-stop-this.html" rel="nofollow">public health crisis</a> of gun violence.</p>
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		<title>By: cgeye</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1213575</link>
		<dc:creator>cgeye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 23:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1213575</guid>
		<description>(and, yes, I know the progress for black and female civil rights was a lot more complicated, but day by day, that&#039;s all it took: Some white man, somewhere, with a gun pointed at someone you love.) 

In my personal countermyth, part of the reason both second-wave feminism and emancipation worked was WWII arming both women and blacks -- with guns they took *home*. Being trained to see yourself as a vital part of society in its defense -- even if you never fired a shot in anger -- counterprograms one against prejudice. The post-WWII fracturing of the polis (which started with HUAC, in my countermyth...) had the primary goal of dismantling the New Deal, but if it could also undo momentum for further human rights initiatives, it was a bonus to the real enemies of democracy -- profiteers, modern slavers, and their bootlicking capitalist lackeys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(and, yes, I know the progress for black and female civil rights was a lot more complicated, but day by day, that&#8217;s all it took: Some white man, somewhere, with a gun pointed at someone you love.) </p>
<p>In my personal countermyth, part of the reason both second-wave feminism and emancipation worked was WWII arming both women and blacks &#8212; with guns they took *home*. Being trained to see yourself as a vital part of society in its defense &#8212; even if you never fired a shot in anger &#8212; counterprograms one against prejudice. The post-WWII fracturing of the polis (which started with HUAC, in my countermyth&#8230;) had the primary goal of dismantling the New Deal, but if it could also undo momentum for further human rights initiatives, it was a bonus to the real enemies of democracy &#8212; profiteers, modern slavers, and their bootlicking capitalist lackeys.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1213573</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 23:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1213573</guid>
		<description>I can barely stand to read about this story.  But, when I do, I&#039;m reminded of June Stephenson&#039;s classic, MEN ARE NOT COST EFFECTIVE.  Seriously and tragically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can barely stand to read about this story.  But, when I do, I&#8217;m reminded of June Stephenson&#8217;s classic, MEN ARE NOT COST EFFECTIVE.  Seriously and tragically.</p>
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		<title>By: cgeye</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1213555</link>
		<dc:creator>cgeye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 22:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1213555</guid>
		<description>But Dr. H -- if they&#039;ve got the bullets, they can legitimately claim, with the force of our history behind them, that anyone else&#039;s vote can be made irrelevant. And who do you think contributes to each election? The NRA&#039;s just like tne new Klan -- they need to exist so we despise their politics, while the people they actually serve conduct their business without comment. The same gun models that kill children here will kill terrorist targets overseas, because it&#039;s a secular sin to stop the arms business.

And hacking voting machines is so high-tech, compared to firebombing a home, or simply letting other criminals pin neighborhoods down until a group of protected renegades get what they want. It&#039;s the ur-story of the A-Team, the lonesome Western rider with a six-shooter and long-gun, or heroic bank robbers and gangsters: If you don&#039;t have a gun, or are protected by those brutal white male experts with it, you are nothing. Truly, if American TV had to de-program its networks every week a mass violence event occurred, they&#039;d go dark.

To be blunt, Negroes had the vote, impotently, for a century, and it only took a periodic lynching to keep them in line. And, as always, women&#039;s influence in the public sphere could easily be controlled by the head of household&#039;s fist. That&#039;s why elections at this point serve as window dressing for ruling class intentions -- they won&#039;t become more unless the populace becomes more of a threat than lobbyists&#039; bosses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Dr. H &#8212; if they&#8217;ve got the bullets, they can legitimately claim, with the force of our history behind them, that anyone else&#8217;s vote can be made irrelevant. And who do you think contributes to each election? The NRA&#8217;s just like tne new Klan &#8212; they need to exist so we despise their politics, while the people they actually serve conduct their business without comment. The same gun models that kill children here will kill terrorist targets overseas, because it&#8217;s a secular sin to stop the arms business.</p>
<p>And hacking voting machines is so high-tech, compared to firebombing a home, or simply letting other criminals pin neighborhoods down until a group of protected renegades get what they want. It&#8217;s the ur-story of the A-Team, the lonesome Western rider with a six-shooter and long-gun, or heroic bank robbers and gangsters: If you don&#8217;t have a gun, or are protected by those brutal white male experts with it, you are nothing. Truly, if American TV had to de-program its networks every week a mass violence event occurred, they&#8217;d go dark.</p>
<p>To be blunt, Negroes had the vote, impotently, for a century, and it only took a periodic lynching to keep them in line. And, as always, women&#8217;s influence in the public sphere could easily be controlled by the head of household&#8217;s fist. That&#8217;s why elections at this point serve as window dressing for ruling class intentions &#8212; they won&#8217;t become more unless the populace becomes more of a threat than lobbyists&#8217; bosses.</p>
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		<title>By: truffula</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1213522</link>
		<dc:creator>truffula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 22:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1213522</guid>
		<description>I think there are two issues here, one is the public health issue of gun availability and the other is the cultural issue of masculinity/strength defined as violent behavior. These two collide in events as in OR and CT this week but the straight up public health risk of family violence, economic/turf violence, etc. turned deadly takes an even higher toll. 

The whole thing makes me sick. Of course, all damage inflicted by the US strength-through-violence culture makes me sick. I was encouraged to see the President clearly emotional about the events of this week and to hear him connect together the headline-grabbing spectacle with more mundane gun violence. I wish he felt the same about the violence of his drone policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are two issues here, one is the public health issue of gun availability and the other is the cultural issue of masculinity/strength defined as violent behavior. These two collide in events as in OR and CT this week but the straight up public health risk of family violence, economic/turf violence, etc. turned deadly takes an even higher toll. </p>
<p>The whole thing makes me sick. Of course, all damage inflicted by the US strength-through-violence culture makes me sick. I was encouraged to see the President clearly emotional about the events of this week and to hear him connect together the headline-grabbing spectacle with more mundane gun violence. I wish he felt the same about the violence of his drone policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1213006</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1213006</guid>
		<description>The political problem is that certain gun owners (not even a majority of them) care much, much more about this issue, and although they are a minority of voters in this country, they&#039;re still much more numerous than family members of victims of gun violence.  Many people will be moved now and for the next few weeks by the events in Newton, Conn., but for how long can politicians count on their support, versus the vigorous, one-issue-voter kind of support offered by the gun nuts?  

(And let&#039;s not even get into the money that can be mobilized against pols who differ even a smidge from the NRA&#039;s party line.)  Maybe what MAIG &amp; the Brady Campaign, etc. should do is start a SuperPAC and start raising some serious coin in order to support pro-gun control politicians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The political problem is that certain gun owners (not even a majority of them) care much, much more about this issue, and although they are a minority of voters in this country, they&#8217;re still much more numerous than family members of victims of gun violence.  Many people will be moved now and for the next few weeks by the events in Newton, Conn., but for how long can politicians count on their support, versus the vigorous, one-issue-voter kind of support offered by the gun nuts?  </p>
<p>(And let&#8217;s not even get into the money that can be mobilized against pols who differ even a smidge from the NRA&#8217;s party line.)  Maybe what MAIG &#038; the Brady Campaign, etc. should do is start a SuperPAC and start raising some serious coin in order to support pro-gun control politicians.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt_L</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/12/14/of-course-we-cant-even-talk-about-limiting-gun-ownership-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1212967</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt_L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 16:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=20150#comment-1212967</guid>
		<description>Historiann, Thanks for reminding me about the elephant in the room. I hope you are right about this year&#039;s election. The gun nuts are not the majority and haven&#039;t been for a long time. They only win because the can straddle the choke points in our political system. So we have to keep pushing. 

I hope its not going to take a Chechenya to sort this out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann, Thanks for reminding me about the elephant in the room. I hope you are right about this year&#8217;s election. The gun nuts are not the majority and haven&#8217;t been for a long time. They only win because the can straddle the choke points in our political system. So we have to keep pushing. </p>
<p>I hope its not going to take a Chechenya to sort this out.</p>
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