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	<title>Comments on: History of the body archaeological bonanza:  600 year old bras and thongs?</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: The big reveal! Historiann has a face for C-SPAN 3. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1224363</link>
		<dc:creator>The big reveal! Historiann has a face for C-SPAN 3. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1224363</guid>
		<description>[...] get C-SPAN 3, it streams online over the weekend, too.  (I also throw in some bits about the 600-year old bra, John Paul Gaultier, and Madonna into the lecture, just for laughs.)  (Amazingly enough, there is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] get C-SPAN 3, it streams online over the weekend, too.  (I also throw in some bits about the 600-year old bra, John Paul Gaultier, and Madonna into the lecture, just for laughs.)  (Amazingly enough, there is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dame Eleanor Hull</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1060101</link>
		<dc:creator>Dame Eleanor Hull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1060101</guid>
		<description>Medieval rules for female religious orders might be helpful, as they specify other types of clothing that a nun had to have and wear.  Presumably nuns would be even more in need of menstrual supplies than a married woman who would spend much of her life pregnant or lactating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Medieval rules for female religious orders might be helpful, as they specify other types of clothing that a nun had to have and wear.  Presumably nuns would be even more in need of menstrual supplies than a married woman who would spend much of her life pregnant or lactating.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1060058</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1060058</guid>
		<description>This find is also interesting in another context. Builders of houses often hid clothing and shoes in the floor boards or walls. We/scholars assume this is &quot;for good luck,&quot; but so far no explanation has come to light. This is a practice that goes way back and way forward. In my 200-year old house, I found shoes in the walls next to fireplaces. My brother&#039;s 50-year old house also had concealed shoes. Some archaeologists connect this to African practices brought to the new world in the slave trade, but the Romans also hid stuff when building houses. So this might not have been just trash thrown away, but intentionally placed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This find is also interesting in another context. Builders of houses often hid clothing and shoes in the floor boards or walls. We/scholars assume this is &#8220;for good luck,&#8221; but so far no explanation has come to light. This is a practice that goes way back and way forward. In my 200-year old house, I found shoes in the walls next to fireplaces. My brother&#8217;s 50-year old house also had concealed shoes. Some archaeologists connect this to African practices brought to the new world in the slave trade, but the Romans also hid stuff when building houses. So this might not have been just trash thrown away, but intentionally placed.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1060052</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1060052</guid>
		<description>Thanks, everyone, for your informed commentary.  And thanks too, anonymous, for the link about the importance of expertise in a field to successful leadership in that field.

Sisyphus:  interesting biblical evidence on ancient menstruation practices.  I&#039;ve been thinking about how the different women (English, African, Native, and French) in my book would have dealt with menstruation, since communities of women are really what I&#039;m writing about.  I hear what you&#039;re saying, but OTOH, I&#039;m thinking that women in the ancient world, like women in Native American communities who practiced menstrual exclusion, might have welcomed a week&#039;s vacation every month!  Cherokee and Wabanaki women would go to menstrual huts when their time came, and other people (women or girls, presumably) would bring them food.  They weren&#039;t expected to work or look after their children, as far as I know.  We know perhaps even less about the practices of European and Euro-American women.  (In most cases, the scholarship focuses on attitudes/beliefs rather than the material culture &amp; practical aspects of menstruation.)

Here&#039;s a brief bibliography of articles I found to be the most helpful:

Marla N. Powers, “Menstruation and Reproduction:  An Oglala Case,” Signs 6:1 (1980), 54-65

Amelia Rector Bell, “Separate People:  Speaking of Creek Men and Women,” American Anthropologist, New Series 92:2 (1990), 332-345

Patricia Crawford, “Attitudes to Menstruation in Seventeenth-Century England,” Past and Present 91:1 (1981), 47-73.

Susan E. Klepp, “Lost, Hidden, Obstructed, and Repressed:  Contraceptive and Abortive Technology in the Early Delaware Valley,” in Early American Technology:  Making &amp; Doing Things from the Colonial Era to 1850 (Chapel Hill:  University of North Carolina Press, 1994), 68-113.

Sadly, I&#039;m processing yet another awful mass murder here in gun-loving Colorado.  I&#039;m sure the rest of you have heard about this too.  Not sure if I&#039;ll be on-blog today.  I guess what I find utterly and completely appalling is the complete impossibility of any of our political leaders suggesting a political solution to these outrages.  I guess our politicians see mass murder like wildfire or drought:  natural phenomena that we must endure the best we can, rather than a political problem with potential political solutions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, everyone, for your informed commentary.  And thanks too, anonymous, for the link about the importance of expertise in a field to successful leadership in that field.</p>
<p>Sisyphus:  interesting biblical evidence on ancient menstruation practices.  I&#8217;ve been thinking about how the different women (English, African, Native, and French) in my book would have dealt with menstruation, since communities of women are really what I&#8217;m writing about.  I hear what you&#8217;re saying, but OTOH, I&#8217;m thinking that women in the ancient world, like women in Native American communities who practiced menstrual exclusion, might have welcomed a week&#8217;s vacation every month!  Cherokee and Wabanaki women would go to menstrual huts when their time came, and other people (women or girls, presumably) would bring them food.  They weren&#8217;t expected to work or look after their children, as far as I know.  We know perhaps even less about the practices of European and Euro-American women.  (In most cases, the scholarship focuses on attitudes/beliefs rather than the material culture &#038; practical aspects of menstruation.)</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a brief bibliography of articles I found to be the most helpful:</p>
<p>Marla N. Powers, “Menstruation and Reproduction:  An Oglala Case,” Signs 6:1 (1980), 54-65</p>
<p>Amelia Rector Bell, “Separate People:  Speaking of Creek Men and Women,” American Anthropologist, New Series 92:2 (1990), 332-345</p>
<p>Patricia Crawford, “Attitudes to Menstruation in Seventeenth-Century England,” Past and Present 91:1 (1981), 47-73.</p>
<p>Susan E. Klepp, “Lost, Hidden, Obstructed, and Repressed:  Contraceptive and Abortive Technology in the Early Delaware Valley,” in Early American Technology:  Making &#038; Doing Things from the Colonial Era to 1850 (Chapel Hill:  University of North Carolina Press, 1994), 68-113.</p>
<p>Sadly, I&#8217;m processing yet another awful mass murder here in gun-loving Colorado.  I&#8217;m sure the rest of you have heard about this too.  Not sure if I&#8217;ll be on-blog today.  I guess what I find utterly and completely appalling is the complete impossibility of any of our political leaders suggesting a political solution to these outrages.  I guess our politicians see mass murder like wildfire or drought:  natural phenomena that we must endure the best we can, rather than a political problem with potential political solutions.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1059946</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1059946</guid>
		<description>Stop the presses! Off-topic, but I want to make sure you see it, H&#039;ann...just listened to Prof. Goodall on the BBC world service overnight and was blown away by her (very bold, in a business school context) research into how professional managers are less effective than subject-matter expert managers. 

 http://www.cassknowledge.com/mobile/inbusiness/feature/coach-ceo

Maybe I&#039;m the last of you lot to learn about her book on higher ed, but just in case...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stop the presses! Off-topic, but I want to make sure you see it, H&#8217;ann&#8230;just listened to Prof. Goodall on the BBC world service overnight and was blown away by her (very bold, in a business school context) research into how professional managers are less effective than subject-matter expert managers. </p>
<p> <a href="http://www.cassknowledge.com/mobile/inbusiness/feature/coach-ceo" rel="nofollow">http://www.cassknowledge.com/mobile/inbusiness/feature/coach-ceo</a></p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m the last of you lot to learn about her book on higher ed, but just in case&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: historienerrant</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1059944</link>
		<dc:creator>historienerrant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1059944</guid>
		<description>@ New Kid: The story on the History Blog has a link to the official statement of the research team on the Innsbruck University website. From the information provided there, the architectural context of the find makes it unlikely that the garments could have been deposited in the place they were found in any later than c. 1500. This is, of course, quite literally circumstantial evidence, but in combination with the radiocarbon dating it does make a 15th century dating of the garments highly plausible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ New Kid: The story on the History Blog has a link to the official statement of the research team on the Innsbruck University website. From the information provided there, the architectural context of the find makes it unlikely that the garments could have been deposited in the place they were found in any later than c. 1500. This is, of course, quite literally circumstantial evidence, but in combination with the radiocarbon dating it does make a 15th century dating of the garments highly plausible.</p>
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		<title>By: historienerrant</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1059943</link>
		<dc:creator>historienerrant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1059943</guid>
		<description>@ Historiann: Yes, there are plenty of images showing bathing men (and for all I know: only men) wearing that kind of thing. But you also find them in domestic scenes, e.g. men getting ready for bed and suchlike, so in the late 15th/early 16th century this really would have been just regular men’s underwear.

However, as the article linked to by Ruth makes clear, the fact that the garment found in Lengberg fits into a well-known category of menswear doesn’t exclude the possibility that it could also have belonged into a different category, a category we simple haven’t been aware of so far. I mean, until two days ago, we had no idea there was such a thing as medieval bras, and as has been mentioned here, we only have very vague ideas regarding what women wore during menstruation.

On this note, I just checked if the encyclopedia on Women and Gender in Medieval Europe (ed. Margaret Schaus, New York : Routledge 2006) had anything to say on the subject, but the entry on ‘Menstruation’ mostly deals with medical and moral attitudes towards menstruations and has little information on the, shall we say, practical aspects. However, it contains this little gem (which is totally unrelated to the question of underwear but simply too hilarious not to share it): 

“(T)he view that menstruation was a sign of Eve’s curse prompted debates as to whether the Virgin Mary herself (who was otherwise thought by many to be free of all taint of original sin) shared this female trait” (p. 558).

Ah, medieval theological debate, gotta love it ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Historiann: Yes, there are plenty of images showing bathing men (and for all I know: only men) wearing that kind of thing. But you also find them in domestic scenes, e.g. men getting ready for bed and suchlike, so in the late 15th/early 16th century this really would have been just regular men’s underwear.</p>
<p>However, as the article linked to by Ruth makes clear, the fact that the garment found in Lengberg fits into a well-known category of menswear doesn’t exclude the possibility that it could also have belonged into a different category, a category we simple haven’t been aware of so far. I mean, until two days ago, we had no idea there was such a thing as medieval bras, and as has been mentioned here, we only have very vague ideas regarding what women wore during menstruation.</p>
<p>On this note, I just checked if the encyclopedia on Women and Gender in Medieval Europe (ed. Margaret Schaus, New York : Routledge 2006) had anything to say on the subject, but the entry on ‘Menstruation’ mostly deals with medical and moral attitudes towards menstruations and has little information on the, shall we say, practical aspects. However, it contains this little gem (which is totally unrelated to the question of underwear but simply too hilarious not to share it): </p>
<p>“(T)he view that menstruation was a sign of Eve’s curse prompted debates as to whether the Virgin Mary herself (who was otherwise thought by many to be free of all taint of original sin) shared this female trait” (p. 558).</p>
<p>Ah, medieval theological debate, gotta love it <img src='http://www.historiann.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1059905</link>
		<dc:creator>Sisyphus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1059905</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been totally wondering how people dealt with menstruation in earlier times! All I know to go on is the story from Genesis where Rachel steals the household gods and then sits on them, claiming she can&#039;t stand up to be searched because she is menstruating. THat always had me worried that the solution was to just have women sit down on something for a week --- talk about no fun!

I&#039;m also surprised how --- I don&#039;t know if it&#039;s new or behind the times ---  fashion history is. Have you read _Emily Dickinson and the Labor of CLothing_? The amount of stuff we don&#039;t know about earlier time periods&#039; clothing is kind of shocking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been totally wondering how people dealt with menstruation in earlier times! All I know to go on is the story from Genesis where Rachel steals the household gods and then sits on them, claiming she can&#8217;t stand up to be searched because she is menstruating. THat always had me worried that the solution was to just have women sit down on something for a week &#8212; talk about no fun!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also surprised how &#8212; I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s new or behind the times &#8212;  fashion history is. Have you read _Emily Dickinson and the Labor of CLothing_? The amount of stuff we don&#8217;t know about earlier time periods&#8217; clothing is kind of shocking.</p>
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		<title>By: Feminist Avatar</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1059875</link>
		<dc:creator>Feminist Avatar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 05:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1059875</guid>
		<description>I think that given what we know of medieval costume that these bras were likely fashion items, but it reminded me of an 18thC letter I once read about a woman with breast cancer and how they treated it through tying poultices to her breast. And presumably women would have used similar treatments for ailments like mastitis, where a device like this would have been handy for keeping things in place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that given what we know of medieval costume that these bras were likely fashion items, but it reminded me of an 18thC letter I once read about a woman with breast cancer and how they treated it through tying poultices to her breast. And presumably women would have used similar treatments for ailments like mastitis, where a device like this would have been handy for keeping things in place.</p>
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		<title>By: Bavardess</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/07/19/history-of-the-body-archaeological-bonanza-600-year-old-bras-and-thongs/comment-page-1/#comment-1059817</link>
		<dc:creator>Bavardess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 02:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19193#comment-1059817</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been kind of surprised by the coverage (no pun intended) this intriguing find has received in the mainstream media, and also by the immediate assumption made in some places that because the items were found together, they form a set. As a medievalist, my first thought on seeing the pants was that it was a male garment, although your theory on menstruation also makes sense. To my knowledge (and I&#039;m certainly no expert on clothing history), medieval women didn&#039;t generally wear anything under their skirts, unless it was necessary (e.g. they were bleeding).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been kind of surprised by the coverage (no pun intended) this intriguing find has received in the mainstream media, and also by the immediate assumption made in some places that because the items were found together, they form a set. As a medievalist, my first thought on seeing the pants was that it was a male garment, although your theory on menstruation also makes sense. To my knowledge (and I&#8217;m certainly no expert on clothing history), medieval women didn&#8217;t generally wear anything under their skirts, unless it was necessary (e.g. they were bleeding).</p>
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