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	<title>Comments on: Feminism:  the hapless frump of social justice movements</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-2/#comment-1045294</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 03:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1045294</guid>
		<description>p.s.  For a Groundhog Day conversation about this article and whether or not women can &quot;have it all,&quot; see today&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-06-25/ongoing-struggle-balance-career-and-family#comments&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Diane Rehm show&lt;/a&gt;.  Diane, to her credit, seems exasperated that she&#039;s hosting the conversation at all, and she makes the point from the start to the effect that &quot;we&#039;ve been having this conversation for forty years, haven&#039;t we?  Why are we still talking about this?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s.  For a Groundhog Day conversation about this article and whether or not women can &#8220;have it all,&#8221; see today&#8217;s <a href="http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-06-25/ongoing-struggle-balance-career-and-family#comments" rel="nofollow">Diane Rehm show</a>.  Diane, to her credit, seems exasperated that she&#8217;s hosting the conversation at all, and she makes the point from the start to the effect that &#8220;we&#8217;ve been having this conversation for forty years, haven&#8217;t we?  Why are we still talking about this?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-2/#comment-1045292</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 03:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1045292</guid>
		<description>Huh?

I have no idea where you got any of those ideas from this post or these comments.

Some here have expressed exasperation with Slaugher&#039;s very ambitious definition of &quot;having it all,&quot; a problematic concept in many respects, but mostly because it&#039;s only applied to women.  Nobody here resents Slaughter&#039;s work; most of us resent articles about &quot;having it all&quot; that are only about women&#039;s lives &amp; never about men&#039;s lives.  

As I said earlier:  when &lt;i&gt;The Atlantic&lt;/i&gt; starts publishing articles with men standing next to the babies they&#039;re allegedly neglecting by remaining in the paid workforce, then I&#039;ll lay off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh?</p>
<p>I have no idea where you got any of those ideas from this post or these comments.</p>
<p>Some here have expressed exasperation with Slaugher&#8217;s very ambitious definition of &#8220;having it all,&#8221; a problematic concept in many respects, but mostly because it&#8217;s only applied to women.  Nobody here resents Slaughter&#8217;s work; most of us resent articles about &#8220;having it all&#8221; that are only about women&#8217;s lives &amp; never about men&#8217;s lives.  </p>
<p>As I said earlier:  when <i>The Atlantic</i> starts publishing articles with men standing next to the babies they&#8217;re allegedly neglecting by remaining in the paid workforce, then I&#8217;ll lay off.</p>
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		<title>By: Christiana</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-1/#comment-1045229</link>
		<dc:creator>Christiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 01:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1045229</guid>
		<description>So if we are critiquing Slaughter for her privileged subject position and supposedly ridiculous desire to have it all -- which in her case seems to mean being an involved mom and holding a high-level policy-making position -- does that mean that the only people we want in policy-making at the federal-government level are child-free men and or/and men with traditional wives?  Do we lose anything by pushing well-educated, highly capable mothers out of top-level jobs?  

PS What&#039;s wrong with nude hose?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So if we are critiquing Slaughter for her privileged subject position and supposedly ridiculous desire to have it all &#8212; which in her case seems to mean being an involved mom and holding a high-level policy-making position &#8212; does that mean that the only people we want in policy-making at the federal-government level are child-free men and or/and men with traditional wives?  Do we lose anything by pushing well-educated, highly capable mothers out of top-level jobs?  </p>
<p>PS What&#8217;s wrong with nude hose?</p>
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		<title>By: cgeye</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-1/#comment-1045032</link>
		<dc:creator>cgeye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1045032</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In the same way that Gay rights has now been reduced to the right to marry and serve in the military, feminism is now all about how to have a career but still “find fulfillment as a woman” by being a great mommy. &lt;/i&gt;

I still agree with this sentiment, because those images are how both gay rights and present-day feminism are approached, pointing toward God, family and patriotism. This was a deliberate turn in the 90s, as deliberate as the right-wing turn of the Democratic Party and neo-liberalism, generally.

Sure, nuances exist in longer arguments, but those are the top notes that stick -- and, for me personally, they still stink.

And her position is still that of privilege, merely because she doesn&#039;t work for an hourly wage. Is is that hard to see that for most of the women who have jobs, a flexible schedule often means losing benefits and pay, due to that flexibility not being paid for by the boss? That, and jobs that need for you to Be There when you&#039;re there will never allow that flexibiity?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In the same way that Gay rights has now been reduced to the right to marry and serve in the military, feminism is now all about how to have a career but still “find fulfillment as a woman” by being a great mommy. </i></p>
<p>I still agree with this sentiment, because those images are how both gay rights and present-day feminism are approached, pointing toward God, family and patriotism. This was a deliberate turn in the 90s, as deliberate as the right-wing turn of the Democratic Party and neo-liberalism, generally.</p>
<p>Sure, nuances exist in longer arguments, but those are the top notes that stick &#8212; and, for me personally, they still stink.</p>
<p>And her position is still that of privilege, merely because she doesn&#8217;t work for an hourly wage. Is is that hard to see that for most of the women who have jobs, a flexible schedule often means losing benefits and pay, due to that flexibility not being paid for by the boss? That, and jobs that need for you to Be There when you&#8217;re there will never allow that flexibiity?</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-1/#comment-1043768</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1043768</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read the whole piece and I don&#039;t find it all that nuanced. Basically, she had and has it all when she&#039;s a tenured prof at Princeton, but not when she worked at the State Dept for 2 years. I&#039;m not sure any high-level government official is ever going to have balance in their lives; the nature of that particular job precludes. I think I&#039;m supposed to admire her for reckoning with the fact that her 2 year stint is more akin to the lives of most other Americans than her tenured job at Princeton. But if you have tenure at Princeton, you should be smart enough to figure that out on your own.

I&#039;ll second, third, fourth two other comments: 1) where are the men (since she&#039;s drawing from personal experience, what obstacles -- if any -- did her husband face as the primary caregiver while she was in DC? Did it alter his standing in his department?) and 2) can we stop talking about work-life balance as though it&#039;s only a mothers thing? It needs to include everyone, those actively parenting, those without kids, those empty-nesters, etc. Flexible schedules are a nice goal, but let&#039;s be honest: a) they&#039;re only possible in some lines of work and b) flexibility requires some stability/commitment as well and that stability/commitment requires everyone to compromise a little. For example -- and to borrow one of her examples -- I&#039;m not convinced a no-dinner-meeting-ever policy is all that awesome for everyone. It&#039;s great if you have kids at home, but what about everyone else who would prefer to finish up and leave at 7, not break and return? What about the nights your kid has a school play at 7 pm or a parent has frisbee practice (because I think parents are allowed some hobbies in the happiness project) or the single person has bird-watching to do or the empty-nester wants to see a movie? My point is not that flexible schedules are bad (they&#039;re good!) but that all of her examples derived from her preferences as a mother of kids at home and failed to account for the fact that others might have different preferences. An inclusive discussion would recognize multiple preferences, the inherent tension between them, and the need to deal with that.

/End rant/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read the whole piece and I don&#8217;t find it all that nuanced. Basically, she had and has it all when she&#8217;s a tenured prof at Princeton, but not when she worked at the State Dept for 2 years. I&#8217;m not sure any high-level government official is ever going to have balance in their lives; the nature of that particular job precludes. I think I&#8217;m supposed to admire her for reckoning with the fact that her 2 year stint is more akin to the lives of most other Americans than her tenured job at Princeton. But if you have tenure at Princeton, you should be smart enough to figure that out on your own.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll second, third, fourth two other comments: 1) where are the men (since she&#8217;s drawing from personal experience, what obstacles &#8212; if any &#8212; did her husband face as the primary caregiver while she was in DC? Did it alter his standing in his department?) and 2) can we stop talking about work-life balance as though it&#8217;s only a mothers thing? It needs to include everyone, those actively parenting, those without kids, those empty-nesters, etc. Flexible schedules are a nice goal, but let&#8217;s be honest: a) they&#8217;re only possible in some lines of work and b) flexibility requires some stability/commitment as well and that stability/commitment requires everyone to compromise a little. For example &#8212; and to borrow one of her examples &#8212; I&#8217;m not convinced a no-dinner-meeting-ever policy is all that awesome for everyone. It&#8217;s great if you have kids at home, but what about everyone else who would prefer to finish up and leave at 7, not break and return? What about the nights your kid has a school play at 7 pm or a parent has frisbee practice (because I think parents are allowed some hobbies in the happiness project) or the single person has bird-watching to do or the empty-nester wants to see a movie? My point is not that flexible schedules are bad (they&#8217;re good!) but that all of her examples derived from her preferences as a mother of kids at home and failed to account for the fact that others might have different preferences. An inclusive discussion would recognize multiple preferences, the inherent tension between them, and the need to deal with that.</p>
<p>/End rant/</p>
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		<title>By: Comradde PhysioProffe</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-1/#comment-1043010</link>
		<dc:creator>Comradde PhysioProffe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:23:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1043010</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Young women these days are so judgmental.&lt;/i&gt;

YESSSSSSSSS! That makes me YOUNG!!!!!!!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Young women these days are so judgmental.</i></p>
<p>YESSSSSSSSS! That makes me YOUNG!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Janice</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-1/#comment-1042939</link>
		<dc:creator>Janice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1042939</guid>
		<description>Oh, crap, I&#039;ve completely blown my credibility - I wear dark stockings. Well, not now - it&#039;s too bloody warm for hosiery of any sort.

Still, I really liked the article - the packaging of the cover wasn&#039;t anything I saw with the online link - because Slaughter laid out how the problem is in the system that denigrates interest in one&#039;s family in favour of &#039;face time&#039; and other constructs that don&#039;t actually make for a better worker or a better pay-off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, crap, I&#8217;ve completely blown my credibility &#8211; I wear dark stockings. Well, not now &#8211; it&#8217;s too bloody warm for hosiery of any sort.</p>
<p>Still, I really liked the article &#8211; the packaging of the cover wasn&#8217;t anything I saw with the online link &#8211; because Slaughter laid out how the problem is in the system that denigrates interest in one&#8217;s family in favour of &#8216;face time&#8217; and other constructs that don&#8217;t actually make for a better worker or a better pay-off.</p>
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		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-1/#comment-1042932</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1042932</guid>
		<description>Rahm Emmanuel must have taken truth serum the day he told a reporter that the White House was &quot;family-friendly for one family only&quot; (@The Alchemist). Talk about going off-message!  When Jimmy Carter was elected president he gathered &quot;The Georgians&quot; and other lifers who had come with him to Washington, and in his sternest preacherly way ordered them to block out significant amounts of free time, to go home for dinner, etc., and maintain the quality of their family lives.  Then the administration began, the West Wing lights burned late, and the family crises and divorces began exploding like thunderstorms in what already seems like a gauzy, primordial part of a post-consensus era of national political and cultural life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rahm Emmanuel must have taken truth serum the day he told a reporter that the White House was &#8220;family-friendly for one family only&#8221; (@The Alchemist). Talk about going off-message!  When Jimmy Carter was elected president he gathered &#8220;The Georgians&#8221; and other lifers who had come with him to Washington, and in his sternest preacherly way ordered them to block out significant amounts of free time, to go home for dinner, etc., and maintain the quality of their family lives.  Then the administration began, the West Wing lights burned late, and the family crises and divorces began exploding like thunderstorms in what already seems like a gauzy, primordial part of a post-consensus era of national political and cultural life.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-1/#comment-1042907</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1042907</guid>
		<description>Yeah--that&#039;s not a high burn rate.  (I just mentioned him as yet another Princetonian who has a high-profile career in public advocacy.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah&#8211;that&#8217;s not a high burn rate.  (I just mentioned him as yet another Princetonian who has a high-profile career in public advocacy.)</p>
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		<title>By: VL</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/06/21/feminism-the-hapless-frump-of-social-justice-movements/comment-page-1/#comment-1042903</link>
		<dc:creator>VL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=19044#comment-1042903</guid>
		<description>I like what NicoleandMaggie said about the sleep deprivation that makes for such an ineffective environment at the White House (and, no doubt, at many other institutions, including academic ones).  We need to start pushing back and speaking up for leisure-- the &quot;free&quot; time it takes to get absorbed in something that allows us to be creative and imaginative.

Nevertheless, I feel compelled to stand up for Paul Krugman. According to Wikipedia, Krugman has been married twice: his first wife is an award-winning designer, his current wife is an academic economist who has actually collaborated with Krugman on books but has a strong career of her own.  Since he&#039;s currently 59 years old, I&#039;d hardly say that he &quot;burns through wives&quot; or that his wives have been the supportive behind-the-scenes cleaner-chauffeur-secretary types who have made so many men&#039;s careers possible.  

I would also say that anyone that blogs as frequently and substantively as he does, and writes as many essays for public consumption as he does, _is_ doing a service.  He&#039;s done more than any other writer to explain economic concepts to a wider audience (and gets regular hate mail for it, to boot). As for his own research, he&#039;s published over 200 scholarly papers and written 20 books, at least some of which have been of a quality to win a few small prizes here and there. That&#039;s a heck of a lot of productivity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like what NicoleandMaggie said about the sleep deprivation that makes for such an ineffective environment at the White House (and, no doubt, at many other institutions, including academic ones).  We need to start pushing back and speaking up for leisure&#8211; the &#8220;free&#8221; time it takes to get absorbed in something that allows us to be creative and imaginative.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I feel compelled to stand up for Paul Krugman. According to Wikipedia, Krugman has been married twice: his first wife is an award-winning designer, his current wife is an academic economist who has actually collaborated with Krugman on books but has a strong career of her own.  Since he&#8217;s currently 59 years old, I&#8217;d hardly say that he &#8220;burns through wives&#8221; or that his wives have been the supportive behind-the-scenes cleaner-chauffeur-secretary types who have made so many men&#8217;s careers possible.  </p>
<p>I would also say that anyone that blogs as frequently and substantively as he does, and writes as many essays for public consumption as he does, _is_ doing a service.  He&#8217;s done more than any other writer to explain economic concepts to a wider audience (and gets regular hate mail for it, to boot). As for his own research, he&#8217;s published over 200 scholarly papers and written 20 books, at least some of which have been of a quality to win a few small prizes here and there. That&#8217;s a heck of a lot of productivity.</p>
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