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	<title>Comments on: Historiann retains birthright; tells Pearson to shove mess o&#8217;pottage where the sun don&#8217;t shine.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Lisa&#039;s (Online) Teaching Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1395172</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa&#039;s (Online) Teaching Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Mar 2013 02:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1395172</guid>
		<description>[...] grad students teach our classes or having us teach hundreds of students. Other historians&#8217; responses to the invitation to participate in helping create computer essay grading are here. The current popularity of MOOCs  bears out the concern about teaching massive classes, and so [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] grad students teach our classes or having us teach hundreds of students. Other historians&#8217; responses to the invitation to participate in helping create computer essay grading are here. The current popularity of MOOCs  bears out the concern about teaching massive classes, and so [...]</p>
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		<title>By: icancstructures</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1099124</link>
		<dc:creator>icancstructures</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1099124</guid>
		<description>I got the same e-mail just now, only the stipend they offered me was only $200. Does that have to do with my status or the status of my university? Or are they haggling over price in the way Churchill was reported to?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got the same e-mail just now, only the stipend they offered me was only $200. Does that have to do with my status or the status of my university? Or are they haggling over price in the way Churchill was reported to?</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1006273</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1006273</guid>
		<description>Funny story, Wogglebug.  I&#039;m glad your faculty stepped up and held your class&#039;s feet to the fire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny story, Wogglebug.  I&#8217;m glad your faculty stepped up and held your class&#8217;s feet to the fire.</p>
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		<title>By: Wogglebug</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1005974</link>
		<dc:creator>Wogglebug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 02:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1005974</guid>
		<description>Historiann, I don&#039;t usually comment here because I&#039;m not an academic.  But I went to college, and I remember my very first college writing assignment.  It was jointly assigned by the English professors and the subject-matter professors in our core course (odd, yes, and I think the first time they&#039;d tried this approach).  

We students all did our research and wrote our papers.  When we got them back, they were marked with minor spelling and grammar corrections, and a letter grade, and that was it.  

We all complained.  We&#039;d been in honors classes in high school.  We&#039;d worked hard to qualify for college. We wanted to do well.  Where was the feedback on ideas, scope of research, ways to improve?

It turned out that the English professors and subject-matter professors had each thought that the other group was going to address the substantive issues, so they&#039;d confined their own evaluation to basic corrections.  They went back and gave us in-depth evaluations.  

If our papers had been graded by machine, we would probably have been up in arms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann, I don&#8217;t usually comment here because I&#8217;m not an academic.  But I went to college, and I remember my very first college writing assignment.  It was jointly assigned by the English professors and the subject-matter professors in our core course (odd, yes, and I think the first time they&#8217;d tried this approach).  </p>
<p>We students all did our research and wrote our papers.  When we got them back, they were marked with minor spelling and grammar corrections, and a letter grade, and that was it.  </p>
<p>We all complained.  We&#8217;d been in honors classes in high school.  We&#8217;d worked hard to qualify for college. We wanted to do well.  Where was the feedback on ideas, scope of research, ways to improve?</p>
<p>It turned out that the English professors and subject-matter professors had each thought that the other group was going to address the substantive issues, so they&#8217;d confined their own evaluation to basic corrections.  They went back and gave us in-depth evaluations.  </p>
<p>If our papers had been graded by machine, we would probably have been up in arms.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr J</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1005316</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2012 02:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1005316</guid>
		<description>Historiann, have you seen this? The line from the Pearson vp is precious. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/education/robo-readers-used-to-grade-test-essays.html?_r=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann, have you seen this? The line from the Pearson vp is precious. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/education/robo-readers-used-to-grade-test-essays.html?_r=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/education/robo-readers-used-to-grade-test-essays.html?_r=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1004413</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2012 15:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1004413</guid>
		<description>My experience is like yours, ProfSweddy:  many students appreciate our work with their writing and they let us know.  (Many probably just look at the grade and if it&#039;s fine with them, we don&#039;t hear from them.)  

I find that my students for the most part have high expectations of the faculty who teach them.  Whereas there is probably some level of acceptance of cheating or plagiarism among their fellow students, I think my students would be shocked and offended if they thought I&#039;d just feed their essays into a scantron instead of reading and responding to them myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience is like yours, ProfSweddy:  many students appreciate our work with their writing and they let us know.  (Many probably just look at the grade and if it&#8217;s fine with them, we don&#8217;t hear from them.)  </p>
<p>I find that my students for the most part have high expectations of the faculty who teach them.  Whereas there is probably some level of acceptance of cheating or plagiarism among their fellow students, I think my students would be shocked and offended if they thought I&#8217;d just feed their essays into a scantron instead of reading and responding to them myself.</p>
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		<title>By: ProfSweddy</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1004311</link>
		<dc:creator>ProfSweddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1004311</guid>
		<description>ej wrote: &quot;My fear is that students wouldn’t be bothered by this.&quot;  

You might be surprised.  I spend a lot of time talking to students and asking them about what they think higher education should look like.  Their answers are not (generally) different from mine.  They desire knowledge. They want to be challenged.  With only one or two exceptions over the years, they believe the best and truest education is in the classroom with a professor, and they want their professor to grade their assignments.

I started having this conversation with students when my institution moved away from its liberal arts mission.  I couldn&#039;t help it.  I would attend the kill-liberal-arts meetings and would end up passionately arguing and passionately weeping.  The meetings would end, and I would have five minutes to get into the classroom where students were curious about why I was so upset.  So I told them.  I have continued this conversation semester by semester, now with students who didn&#039;t see me weeping my way into the classroom.

When I turned back a set of freshmen papers this semester, apologizing for the delay it took me to grade all 100 of them (two sections), a couple of students actually came up to me afterwards to thank me for the care I took in grading them and commenting on them.  These two were not history majors and both, I believe, received Bs instead of the coveted As.  And, OK, that is only 2 out of 100, but it gladdened my heart.

There certainly are plenty of students here who probably don&#039;t care, but I am always pleased and heartened by those who do.  Of course I am usually talking to (a) history majors and (b) students who are engaged in some form of social justice activism, so I do understand that my sample is not very good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ej wrote: &#8220;My fear is that students wouldn’t be bothered by this.&#8221;  </p>
<p>You might be surprised.  I spend a lot of time talking to students and asking them about what they think higher education should look like.  Their answers are not (generally) different from mine.  They desire knowledge. They want to be challenged.  With only one or two exceptions over the years, they believe the best and truest education is in the classroom with a professor, and they want their professor to grade their assignments.</p>
<p>I started having this conversation with students when my institution moved away from its liberal arts mission.  I couldn&#8217;t help it.  I would attend the kill-liberal-arts meetings and would end up passionately arguing and passionately weeping.  The meetings would end, and I would have five minutes to get into the classroom where students were curious about why I was so upset.  So I told them.  I have continued this conversation semester by semester, now with students who didn&#8217;t see me weeping my way into the classroom.</p>
<p>When I turned back a set of freshmen papers this semester, apologizing for the delay it took me to grade all 100 of them (two sections), a couple of students actually came up to me afterwards to thank me for the care I took in grading them and commenting on them.  These two were not history majors and both, I believe, received Bs instead of the coveted As.  And, OK, that is only 2 out of 100, but it gladdened my heart.</p>
<p>There certainly are plenty of students here who probably don&#8217;t care, but I am always pleased and heartened by those who do.  Of course I am usually talking to (a) history majors and (b) students who are engaged in some form of social justice activism, so I do understand that my sample is not very good.</p>
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		<title>By: undine</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1004064</link>
		<dc:creator>undine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2012 04:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1004064</guid>
		<description>Agree and agree again about the class division in institutions that this encourages, among other evils, Historiann.  One civil disobedience possibility: historians hold a &quot;plagiarize my blog&quot; day in which everyone writes a wildly incorrect but perfect 6 essay and invites students to help themselves in submitting it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree and agree again about the class division in institutions that this encourages, among other evils, Historiann.  One civil disobedience possibility: historians hold a &#8220;plagiarize my blog&#8221; day in which everyone writes a wildly incorrect but perfect 6 essay and invites students to help themselves in submitting it.</p>
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		<title>By: Grad Student</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1003968</link>
		<dc:creator>Grad Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1003968</guid>
		<description>I agree with the sentiment Tom and Northern Barbarian raised; the time and effort I put into grading papers is about so much more than just checking the accuracy of the content. I give feedback for improving their writing, as well as point out how they could improve their arguments, amongst other things. I know most of them probably don&#039;t pay any attention to it, but I hope some of them leave my class just a little more skilled as writers, scholars and (dare I say it?) critical thinkers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the sentiment Tom and Northern Barbarian raised; the time and effort I put into grading papers is about so much more than just checking the accuracy of the content. I give feedback for improving their writing, as well as point out how they could improve their arguments, amongst other things. I know most of them probably don&#8217;t pay any attention to it, but I hope some of them leave my class just a little more skilled as writers, scholars and (dare I say it?) critical thinkers.</p>
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		<title>By: ej</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/04/24/historiann-retains-birthright-tells-pearson-to-shove-mess-opottage-where-the-sun-dont-shine/comment-page-1/#comment-1003941</link>
		<dc:creator>ej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18660#comment-1003941</guid>
		<description>My fear is that students wouldn&#039;t be bothered by this. They might actually believe a computer to be &quot;more objective&quot; as an evaluator of their work. I say this after watching too many commercials for on-line schools that actually pitch their product as an improvement to traditional higher ed institutions by saying things like &quot;don&#039;t you want to take charge of your education instead of sitting in some lecture?&quot; 

What concerns me is that the folks at Pearson think there is a market for this, and I think that is based on some research. It is the same market that they pitch all those textbooks with &quot;instructor&#039;s manuals&quot; to, which are there to teach you how to teach your class. Which I find very problematic. But since they keep publishing them, I&#039;m guessing someone is buying...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My fear is that students wouldn&#8217;t be bothered by this. They might actually believe a computer to be &#8220;more objective&#8221; as an evaluator of their work. I say this after watching too many commercials for on-line schools that actually pitch their product as an improvement to traditional higher ed institutions by saying things like &#8220;don&#8217;t you want to take charge of your education instead of sitting in some lecture?&#8221; </p>
<p>What concerns me is that the folks at Pearson think there is a market for this, and I think that is based on some research. It is the same market that they pitch all those textbooks with &#8220;instructor&#8217;s manuals&#8221; to, which are there to teach you how to teach your class. Which I find very problematic. But since they keep publishing them, I&#8217;m guessing someone is buying&#8230;</p>
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