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	<title>Comments on: Great one-liners you&#8217;ll never see outside of the feminist blogosphere</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: In which I explain my hairstyle to others on the basis of my submission to authority, or, let&#8217;s talk about hair and history. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-968454</link>
		<dc:creator>In which I explain my hairstyle to others on the basis of my submission to authority, or, let&#8217;s talk about hair and history. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 16:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-968454</guid>
		<description>[...] been thinking a lot about hair lately.  First, there was this comment from LouMac yesterday, in which she wrote (sarcastically, in a rant about &#8220;choice&#8221; feminism and the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] been thinking a lot about hair lately.  First, there was this comment from LouMac yesterday, in which she wrote (sarcastically, in a rant about &#8220;choice&#8221; feminism and the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-968432</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-968432</guid>
		<description>This is a really good point, anonymous.  The fact of the matter is that it&#039;s not just &quot;slutty&quot; young girls getting abortions--it&#039;s adult women, married women, and women who are frequently already mothers who choose abortions.

The other thing that the right doesn&#039;t want to talk about, and that the left seems too afraid to broach, is the fact that so-called pro-life women get abortions, too.*  And then they go back into their faith communities and rail against the slutty slutty slut sluts who are &quot;killing their children,&quot; after having enjoyed a safe, clean, legal and therefore regulated abortion.

*A friend of mine used to perform abortions in this state, and she told me that fully 1/3 of her patients had notes on their charts that they had religious and/or moral objections to the procedure, but guess what?  They demanded their abortions anyway.

But acknowledging the universality and the complexity of which women get abortions and why is difficult, and slut-shaming is sooooo easy!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a really good point, anonymous.  The fact of the matter is that it&#8217;s not just &#8220;slutty&#8221; young girls getting abortions&#8211;it&#8217;s adult women, married women, and women who are frequently already mothers who choose abortions.</p>
<p>The other thing that the right doesn&#8217;t want to talk about, and that the left seems too afraid to broach, is the fact that so-called pro-life women get abortions, too.*  And then they go back into their faith communities and rail against the slutty slutty slut sluts who are &#8220;killing their children,&#8221; after having enjoyed a safe, clean, legal and therefore regulated abortion.</p>
<p>*A friend of mine used to perform abortions in this state, and she told me that fully 1/3 of her patients had notes on their charts that they had religious and/or moral objections to the procedure, but guess what?  They demanded their abortions anyway.</p>
<p>But acknowledging the universality and the complexity of which women get abortions and why is difficult, and slut-shaming is sooooo easy!!!</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-968423</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-968423</guid>
		<description>The thing I find frustrating about the abortion/birth control conversation is that it is all about &quot;youth&quot; and preventing the youth from having sex.  I had an abortion in the 1980s - I was a youth (and using birth control) and I remember sitting in the recovery room afterwards with a group of women who had all just had abortions too.  And you know what?  I was the only youth.  All the women had been using some form of birth control, most were married and all already had 2-4 children and just could not feasibly see themselves as being able to afford having any more.  My point being that the Right has changed the conversation but more importantly they&#039;ve eluded the real problem.  It&#039;s not about reckless youth having too much sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing I find frustrating about the abortion/birth control conversation is that it is all about &#8220;youth&#8221; and preventing the youth from having sex.  I had an abortion in the 1980s &#8211; I was a youth (and using birth control) and I remember sitting in the recovery room afterwards with a group of women who had all just had abortions too.  And you know what?  I was the only youth.  All the women had been using some form of birth control, most were married and all already had 2-4 children and just could not feasibly see themselves as being able to afford having any more.  My point being that the Right has changed the conversation but more importantly they&#8217;ve eluded the real problem.  It&#8217;s not about reckless youth having too much sex.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-968079</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-968079</guid>
		<description>p.s.  Then again, I suppose our students think their women proffies are just as prone to herd behavior when we have short haircuts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s.  Then again, I suppose our students think their women proffies are just as prone to herd behavior when we have short haircuts.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-968077</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-968077</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Perpetua--that just about sums up my perspective.  I too remember being scolded by a Second-Waver about the apologias for abortion popular in my/our generation.

Northern Barbarian, I think you&#039;re right about the losses the right has obvs. suffered.  I am just getting tired of &lt;i&gt;cherchez les femmes&lt;/i&gt; as the default response mode.  Anxious about the Reformation?  Blame the women--all of them, the prostitutes AND the nuns AND the slutty married women!  Troubled by the Age of Revolution?  Round up the women and get them out of the public square.  Yay for emancipation!  Now, about all that female loaferism. . . .  etc.

I think it&#039;s interesting that you think gay students have it more difficult.  That would be the one thing I would say had definitely changed for the better.  Even at my current uni, there are a large number of out women &amp; men, and trans students too.  But I totally see LouMac&#039;s point about the range of acceptable gender performances for straight women being narrowed.  

I loved this in particular:  &lt;i&gt;Young white hetero women all have identical long straight hair because they choose it!&lt;/i&gt;  For the past 10 years, I feel like I&#039;ve been teaching in a Mod Squad episode when it comes to white women&#039;s hair.  And in the American West, long hair is kind of a regional identity statement for many grizzled men as well as older women.  (Lots of guys with unkempt gray ponytails!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Perpetua&#8211;that just about sums up my perspective.  I too remember being scolded by a Second-Waver about the apologias for abortion popular in my/our generation.</p>
<p>Northern Barbarian, I think you&#8217;re right about the losses the right has obvs. suffered.  I am just getting tired of <i>cherchez les femmes</i> as the default response mode.  Anxious about the Reformation?  Blame the women&#8211;all of them, the prostitutes AND the nuns AND the slutty married women!  Troubled by the Age of Revolution?  Round up the women and get them out of the public square.  Yay for emancipation!  Now, about all that female loaferism. . . .  etc.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s interesting that you think gay students have it more difficult.  That would be the one thing I would say had definitely changed for the better.  Even at my current uni, there are a large number of out women &#038; men, and trans students too.  But I totally see LouMac&#8217;s point about the range of acceptable gender performances for straight women being narrowed.  </p>
<p>I loved this in particular:  <i>Young white hetero women all have identical long straight hair because they choose it!</i>  For the past 10 years, I feel like I&#8217;ve been teaching in a Mod Squad episode when it comes to white women&#8217;s hair.  And in the American West, long hair is kind of a regional identity statement for many grizzled men as well as older women.  (Lots of guys with unkempt gray ponytails!)</p>
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		<title>By: Northern Barbarian</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-968024</link>
		<dc:creator>Northern Barbarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-968024</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the backlash is also fueled by the religious right&#039;s realization that they have *lost* a lot of ground over the last 30 years.  Most Catholics ignore the Church on birth control; condoms and all kinds of fun lube are available at my grocery store; most people under 45 see no problem with gay people and gay marriage.  The best way to rattle the cage of my college&#039;s self-proclaimed &quot;embattled conservative&quot; is to display any form of female independent sexuality, which happens regularly.

That said, I also see at my SLAC the social enforcement of female sexual subservience, and I think that gay students here have a rougher time of it than I did in the mid-1980s. College culture makes as much of a difference as geography: I attended a Midwestern but very liberal SLAC, and now teach at an East Coast but more conservative SLAC. Anyway, the political attacks on women are sickening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the backlash is also fueled by the religious right&#8217;s realization that they have *lost* a lot of ground over the last 30 years.  Most Catholics ignore the Church on birth control; condoms and all kinds of fun lube are available at my grocery store; most people under 45 see no problem with gay people and gay marriage.  The best way to rattle the cage of my college&#8217;s self-proclaimed &#8220;embattled conservative&#8221; is to display any form of female independent sexuality, which happens regularly.</p>
<p>That said, I also see at my SLAC the social enforcement of female sexual subservience, and I think that gay students here have a rougher time of it than I did in the mid-1980s. College culture makes as much of a difference as geography: I attended a Midwestern but very liberal SLAC, and now teach at an East Coast but more conservative SLAC. Anyway, the political attacks on women are sickening.</p>
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		<title>By: LouMac</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-968005</link>
		<dc:creator>LouMac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-968005</guid>
		<description>Perpetua - absolutely! As George Lakoff pointed out, the religious right have been marketing geniuses for the last 20 years or so, in their understanding of the intersections between linguistics and ideologies. They know that if you corner the market on key terms and concepts, you make it effectively impossible to think outside those frameworks. They&#039;ve done this with abortion, as you eloquently point out - even the most ardent pro-choicers almost automatically use the language of shame, torment, identity-defining tragedy, etc. (Hence the importance of projects like Baumgartner&#039;s &quot;I&#039;m Not Sorry&quot;.) Even the word &quot;life&quot; - in almost any context - becomes infused with religious reverence and therefore an anti-choice stance (do you remember Safeway&#039;s ad campaign, &quot;ingredients for Life&quot;? I swear that was political ploy).

On this and many other issues I agree that women are experiencing a prolonged backlash. It&#039;s all the more pernicious because the choices they make under increased constraints are believed to be freely-made choices (the problem with &quot;choice feminism&quot;). Women opt out of careers because they choose to! they are hormonally predisposed to nest and to eschew competitive environments! Young white hetero women all have identical long straight hair because they choose it! Women want babies and when they have them they choose to focus on nothing else!

Personally, as a queer, things have improved for me materially and culturally. But I think feminist straight women have it harder than they did 20 years ago. When I was a young women, my gender presentation did not automatically mark me as queer - women had all kinds of hair and clothing styles that were considered acceptable. As a kid I played with toy cars and climbed trees without too much adult &#039;correction&#039;. This was in the UK, but I think things were similar here, based on conversations with friends. Now, the constraints on normative feminine expression are considerably greater, and I count myself lucky to be out of that particular ideological economy (even though there&#039;s a certain amount of femme fetishising going on among women who love women).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perpetua &#8211; absolutely! As George Lakoff pointed out, the religious right have been marketing geniuses for the last 20 years or so, in their understanding of the intersections between linguistics and ideologies. They know that if you corner the market on key terms and concepts, you make it effectively impossible to think outside those frameworks. They&#8217;ve done this with abortion, as you eloquently point out &#8211; even the most ardent pro-choicers almost automatically use the language of shame, torment, identity-defining tragedy, etc. (Hence the importance of projects like Baumgartner&#8217;s &#8220;I&#8217;m Not Sorry&#8221;.) Even the word &#8220;life&#8221; &#8211; in almost any context &#8211; becomes infused with religious reverence and therefore an anti-choice stance (do you remember Safeway&#8217;s ad campaign, &#8220;ingredients for Life&#8221;? I swear that was political ploy).</p>
<p>On this and many other issues I agree that women are experiencing a prolonged backlash. It&#8217;s all the more pernicious because the choices they make under increased constraints are believed to be freely-made choices (the problem with &#8220;choice feminism&#8221;). Women opt out of careers because they choose to! they are hormonally predisposed to nest and to eschew competitive environments! Young white hetero women all have identical long straight hair because they choose it! Women want babies and when they have them they choose to focus on nothing else!</p>
<p>Personally, as a queer, things have improved for me materially and culturally. But I think feminist straight women have it harder than they did 20 years ago. When I was a young women, my gender presentation did not automatically mark me as queer &#8211; women had all kinds of hair and clothing styles that were considered acceptable. As a kid I played with toy cars and climbed trees without too much adult &#8216;correction&#8217;. This was in the UK, but I think things were similar here, based on conversations with friends. Now, the constraints on normative feminine expression are considerably greater, and I count myself lucky to be out of that particular ideological economy (even though there&#8217;s a certain amount of femme fetishising going on among women who love women).</p>
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		<title>By: Perpetua</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-967961</link>
		<dc:creator>Perpetua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-967961</guid>
		<description>I have definitely seen the shift that Historiann talks about.  While I agree, too, that the trend affects straight and non-straight folks differently (and I think things are clearly better now for non-straight, non gender conforming folks, as slight an improvement as it may be), I would argue that the way the right has shifted the entire political-economic discourse has applied equally to sexuality and women&#039;s bodies.  Nothing of the left has been able to combat the right&#039;s brilliant use of various discourse to shift the debate so incrementally, people weren&#039;t outraged about it. First it was convincing pro-choice people about &quot;partial birth abortions&quot;, then that ultrasounds were actually for the benefit of women seeking abortions, then the various way they colonized society with that insidious &quot;religious conscience&quot; objection to every from Catholic hospitals offering rape victims the morning after pill to Walmart pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions.  This is just the latest iteration of all that coming to a head.  When I was in a graduate seminar in the mid 90s we were talking about abortions - feminists all us, and all the students were cagey and hesitant and all &quot;Yeah, I know, it&#039;s *difficult* and *painful* with all these emotional repercussions&quot;; the prof was horrified.  She was of the Roe v. Wade generation and she said flat out, I had an abortion and it was the best decision I&#039;ve ever made.  Our jaws hit the floor, because none of us had ever heard a conversation about abortion that wasn&#039;t framed somehow in the horror and tragedy of it. Even pro-choice feminist people started adopting that framing and vocabulary.  I hadn&#039;t realized until that very moment that I&#039;d been brainwashed, that we&#039;d all been brainwashed by the mid-90s into viewing abortion as something that was legally necessarily but morally or psychologically or emotionally fraught. That&#039;s all they need, the pro-life folks, that tiny foothold (exemplified perfectly in their overwhelming success in the partial birth abortion campaign) to start cracking away at the foundations of reproductive freedom and female bodily autonomy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have definitely seen the shift that Historiann talks about.  While I agree, too, that the trend affects straight and non-straight folks differently (and I think things are clearly better now for non-straight, non gender conforming folks, as slight an improvement as it may be), I would argue that the way the right has shifted the entire political-economic discourse has applied equally to sexuality and women&#8217;s bodies.  Nothing of the left has been able to combat the right&#8217;s brilliant use of various discourse to shift the debate so incrementally, people weren&#8217;t outraged about it. First it was convincing pro-choice people about &#8220;partial birth abortions&#8221;, then that ultrasounds were actually for the benefit of women seeking abortions, then the various way they colonized society with that insidious &#8220;religious conscience&#8221; objection to every from Catholic hospitals offering rape victims the morning after pill to Walmart pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions.  This is just the latest iteration of all that coming to a head.  When I was in a graduate seminar in the mid 90s we were talking about abortions &#8211; feminists all us, and all the students were cagey and hesitant and all &#8220;Yeah, I know, it&#8217;s *difficult* and *painful* with all these emotional repercussions&#8221;; the prof was horrified.  She was of the Roe v. Wade generation and she said flat out, I had an abortion and it was the best decision I&#8217;ve ever made.  Our jaws hit the floor, because none of us had ever heard a conversation about abortion that wasn&#8217;t framed somehow in the horror and tragedy of it. Even pro-choice feminist people started adopting that framing and vocabulary.  I hadn&#8217;t realized until that very moment that I&#8217;d been brainwashed, that we&#8217;d all been brainwashed by the mid-90s into viewing abortion as something that was legally necessarily but morally or psychologically or emotionally fraught. That&#8217;s all they need, the pro-life folks, that tiny foothold (exemplified perfectly in their overwhelming success in the partial birth abortion campaign) to start cracking away at the foundations of reproductive freedom and female bodily autonomy.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-967940</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-967940</guid>
		<description>Dr. Crazy:  you&#039;re right that some of these things will be (as truffula also suggested), regional and college or uni-dependent.  I attended a very lefty small college in the East, so that made a difference, I am sure.  And too, I think the whole pregnancy thing is colored by class:  where I went to school, it was just not acceptable to be pregnant in college.

That said:  I never knew anyone who had an abortion in college, because we were responsible and on birth control, and we damn sure knew we could get the off-label morning-after pills at the student health center.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Crazy:  you&#8217;re right that some of these things will be (as truffula also suggested), regional and college or uni-dependent.  I attended a very lefty small college in the East, so that made a difference, I am sure.  And too, I think the whole pregnancy thing is colored by class:  where I went to school, it was just not acceptable to be pregnant in college.</p>
<p>That said:  I never knew anyone who had an abortion in college, because we were responsible and on birth control, and we damn sure knew we could get the off-label morning-after pills at the student health center.</p>
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		<title>By: Western Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2012/02/21/great-one-liners-youll-never-see-outside-of-the-feminist-blogosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-967915</link>
		<dc:creator>Western Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=18111#comment-967915</guid>
		<description>I remember going to a campus forum on abortion in 1986 or so sponsored by the God Squad (evangelical division), the social justice God Squad (Catholic division - largely first generation US), and the wymyn&#039;s center.  The consensus seemed to be that nobody was really in favor of abortions for the sake of having abortions.  Everybody seemed in favor of birth control with some provisions for abstinence education for the religiously inclined.  Condoms were very in because we had just gotten the word on condoms and AIDS prevention.  Now granted, these were not typical evangelicals (they had chosen to attend a Quaker school after all) and consensus was valued.  It was all very civilized and calm and Quakerly.  One of the pro-choice folks, was IIRC, a woman a year ahead of me who had given up a baby for adoption during HS (very Quinn from Glee).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember going to a campus forum on abortion in 1986 or so sponsored by the God Squad (evangelical division), the social justice God Squad (Catholic division &#8211; largely first generation US), and the wymyn&#8217;s center.  The consensus seemed to be that nobody was really in favor of abortions for the sake of having abortions.  Everybody seemed in favor of birth control with some provisions for abstinence education for the religiously inclined.  Condoms were very in because we had just gotten the word on condoms and AIDS prevention.  Now granted, these were not typical evangelicals (they had chosen to attend a Quaker school after all) and consensus was valued.  It was all very civilized and calm and Quakerly.  One of the pro-choice folks, was IIRC, a woman a year ahead of me who had given up a baby for adoption during HS (very Quinn from Glee).</p>
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