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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s the matter with higher ed?  Too much talk about degrees, not enough talk about achievement.</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Spanish Prof</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-905188</link>
		<dc:creator>Spanish Prof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-905188</guid>
		<description>Well, thank God I didn&#039;t have CPP or Historiann in the grad admission comittee. I got 400 in the Verbal, 720 in Math, and 760 in the Analytical (is that how it was called?). I am not a native speaker, but my MA was not in Spanish (all the coursework was in English). Later I was told that my 760 is what got me admitted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, thank God I didn&#8217;t have CPP or Historiann in the grad admission comittee. I got 400 in the Verbal, 720 in Math, and 760 in the Analytical (is that how it was called?). I am not a native speaker, but my MA was not in Spanish (all the coursework was in English). Later I was told that my 760 is what got me admitted.</p>
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		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-905054</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2011 04:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-905054</guid>
		<description>I can still remember as if it was yesterday (and it was anything but yesterday) the old college registrar being trotted out at the opening convocation of my freshman year, with parents sitting all around, to deliver the &quot;amen, amen, I say to you, you have to work 40 hours a week here to succeed, just like your former classmates who took actual jobs.&quot;  And as the shock sank in he added, &quot;and I don&#039;t mean including your hours in the classroom; 40 hours of self-directed reading and other work.&quot;  And so I bought a notebook and mapped 40 out-of-class non-meal hours on the inside cover, onto a six day week, reserving Friday nights and all of Saturdays not to do any academics.  And dialed it back slowly from there, term-by-term as I figured out what the hell I was actually doing, and watched more than a few national merit scholars sliding away in the rear view mirror.

On the other hand, I have no recollection whatsoever of taking the GRE.  Not even a blurry one.  I can remember my first conversation with my advisor about possible grad schools almost to the word.  Acceptance letters, rejection letters, deposit checks, flying home to flunk a draft exam, renting a hovel in town, but not anything about the GRE.  And unlike SATs and even PSATs, I have no documentary evidence, so I have no idea what I got.  The selectivity and even demonstrable inaccuracy of personal memory is, perversely enough, one of the things I like best about the work of the historian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can still remember as if it was yesterday (and it was anything but yesterday) the old college registrar being trotted out at the opening convocation of my freshman year, with parents sitting all around, to deliver the &#8220;amen, amen, I say to you, you have to work 40 hours a week here to succeed, just like your former classmates who took actual jobs.&#8221;  And as the shock sank in he added, &#8220;and I don&#8217;t mean including your hours in the classroom; 40 hours of self-directed reading and other work.&#8221;  And so I bought a notebook and mapped 40 out-of-class non-meal hours on the inside cover, onto a six day week, reserving Friday nights and all of Saturdays not to do any academics.  And dialed it back slowly from there, term-by-term as I figured out what the hell I was actually doing, and watched more than a few national merit scholars sliding away in the rear view mirror.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I have no recollection whatsoever of taking the GRE.  Not even a blurry one.  I can remember my first conversation with my advisor about possible grad schools almost to the word.  Acceptance letters, rejection letters, deposit checks, flying home to flunk a draft exam, renting a hovel in town, but not anything about the GRE.  And unlike SATs and even PSATs, I have no documentary evidence, so I have no idea what I got.  The selectivity and even demonstrable inaccuracy of personal memory is, perversely enough, one of the things I like best about the work of the historian.</p>
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		<title>By: Janice</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-904969</link>
		<dc:creator>Janice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2011 00:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-904969</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m feeling sheepish that I don&#039;t have a clue what my undergrad GPA worked out to be. I know I got straight As in history (I&#039;d learned how to do university pretty well by the time I took my first history course!) but for the rest? Not a clue, now, and no sense it really made an impact on me back then. (Probably because my years as a geophysics and engineering major didn&#039;t pile on the stellar marks. I kind of suppressed those memories.)

When we admit students to our M.A. program, we don&#039;t use any standardized tests. It&#039;s all based on statements, transcripts and letters of recommendation. With regard to transcripts, we want to see how they did in courses in the discipline, particularly in the last two years of their undergrad study. Were they &#039;getting it&#039; by that point? Were they studying subjects that would prepare them well for success in our admittedly small and specialized grad program? If so, that matters more than all the 4.0s the world can muster!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m feeling sheepish that I don&#8217;t have a clue what my undergrad GPA worked out to be. I know I got straight As in history (I&#8217;d learned how to do university pretty well by the time I took my first history course!) but for the rest? Not a clue, now, and no sense it really made an impact on me back then. (Probably because my years as a geophysics and engineering major didn&#8217;t pile on the stellar marks. I kind of suppressed those memories.)</p>
<p>When we admit students to our M.A. program, we don&#8217;t use any standardized tests. It&#8217;s all based on statements, transcripts and letters of recommendation. With regard to transcripts, we want to see how they did in courses in the discipline, particularly in the last two years of their undergrad study. Were they &#8216;getting it&#8217; by that point? Were they studying subjects that would prepare them well for success in our admittedly small and specialized grad program? If so, that matters more than all the 4.0s the world can muster!</p>
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		<title>By: Comrade PhysioProf</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-904674</link>
		<dc:creator>Comrade PhysioProf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-904674</guid>
		<description>There are many reasons why someone might do poorly on the verbal GREs, but there is only one reason why someone gets an 800.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are many reasons why someone might do poorly on the verbal GREs, but there is only one reason why someone gets an 800.</p>
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		<title>By: truffula</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-904381</link>
		<dc:creator>truffula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 23:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-904381</guid>
		<description>I agree with CPP about the skills tested in verbal GRE and success at the research level in my area of the natural sciences. My colleagues have the same impression, which meant it was a bit of a shock when we did the statistical analysis of many years of graduate applicant data and discovered that GREs didn&#039;t predict much with respect to graduate work in our program.

I think this disconnect between what we &quot;know&quot; and what is happening could come from a few places. Most likely, students keep improving with reading and writing and if it is done right, either the MS or the research prospectus for the PhD is an excellent learning tool. Second, one exam--the GRE or anything else--is one exam. There are myriad reasons why something might go awry (although the smart student then takes the exam again).  Third, we are a diamond-in-the-rough sort of place and few students with truly stellar records ever darken our door. We nevertheless need some fundamentals from which to build, for example math, which cross-cuts nearly everything we do and has a literacy aspect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with CPP about the skills tested in verbal GRE and success at the research level in my area of the natural sciences. My colleagues have the same impression, which meant it was a bit of a shock when we did the statistical analysis of many years of graduate applicant data and discovered that GREs didn&#8217;t predict much with respect to graduate work in our program.</p>
<p>I think this disconnect between what we &#8220;know&#8221; and what is happening could come from a few places. Most likely, students keep improving with reading and writing and if it is done right, either the MS or the research prospectus for the PhD is an excellent learning tool. Second, one exam&#8211;the GRE or anything else&#8211;is one exam. There are myriad reasons why something might go awry (although the smart student then takes the exam again).  Third, we are a diamond-in-the-rough sort of place and few students with truly stellar records ever darken our door. We nevertheless need some fundamentals from which to build, for example math, which cross-cuts nearly everything we do and has a literacy aspect.</p>
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		<title>By: Comrade PhysioProf</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-904362</link>
		<dc:creator>Comrade PhysioProf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-904362</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Your interest in the verbal GRE score for bioscience research is interesting. That’s the only score we look at in our grad admissions, too.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Cutting-edge novel work in the experimental biosciences is all highly interdisciplinary. The only way to survive in a highly interdisciplinary context is to be able to communicate deeply and broadly with people who know things that you don&#039;t about things that you know that they don&#039;t, and vice versa. High verbal GREs are diagnostic of that capacity, which derives in large part from digesting and generating vast amounts of complex text during years of practice reading and writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Your interest in the verbal GRE score for bioscience research is interesting. That’s the only score we look at in our grad admissions, too.</p></blockquote>
<p>Cutting-edge novel work in the experimental biosciences is all highly interdisciplinary. The only way to survive in a highly interdisciplinary context is to be able to communicate deeply and broadly with people who know things that you don&#8217;t about things that you know that they don&#8217;t, and vice versa. High verbal GREs are diagnostic of that capacity, which derives in large part from digesting and generating vast amounts of complex text during years of practice reading and writing.</p>
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		<title>By: TheRuminate</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-904358</link>
		<dc:creator>TheRuminate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-904358</guid>
		<description>I hear these issues about students whinging about grades often, though I confess I rarely receive them.  Not never, but comparatively less than other colleagues.  I am not sure why.  One thing I say on the first day of class and reiterate is that I could be the absolutely best teacher the world as ever seen, but if they don&#039;t care about my class, don&#039;t do the homework, don&#039;t engage, they will fail and there isn&#039;t a thing I can do about it.  Inversely, I could be the worst teacher in world history and if they care about their learning, do the homework, engage in the course, they will learn.  The most important thing in their education is their choice to learn or not and has next to nothing to do with the professor, who for the most part are good people who care about their students and work to improve their classes and teaching.  Yes, that does downplay the responsibility of the faculty more than perhaps necessary, but I do that in order to inform them on Day 1 that they the students are responsible for what happens in the class and their grades. 

Most of the time it works for most of the students.  While I have plenty of C students, I have few who actually just fail (D is failing in my book), and a good proportion of As and Bs and very little complaining about the grade received.    

The irony will be that now that I&#039;ve said that....this semester there will be much of complaining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear these issues about students whinging about grades often, though I confess I rarely receive them.  Not never, but comparatively less than other colleagues.  I am not sure why.  One thing I say on the first day of class and reiterate is that I could be the absolutely best teacher the world as ever seen, but if they don&#8217;t care about my class, don&#8217;t do the homework, don&#8217;t engage, they will fail and there isn&#8217;t a thing I can do about it.  Inversely, I could be the worst teacher in world history and if they care about their learning, do the homework, engage in the course, they will learn.  The most important thing in their education is their choice to learn or not and has next to nothing to do with the professor, who for the most part are good people who care about their students and work to improve their classes and teaching.  Yes, that does downplay the responsibility of the faculty more than perhaps necessary, but I do that in order to inform them on Day 1 that they the students are responsible for what happens in the class and their grades. </p>
<p>Most of the time it works for most of the students.  While I have plenty of C students, I have few who actually just fail (D is failing in my book), and a good proportion of As and Bs and very little complaining about the grade received.    </p>
<p>The irony will be that now that I&#8217;ve said that&#8230;.this semester there will be much of complaining.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-904338</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-904338</guid>
		<description>4.0s before bros, bro.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>4.0s before bros, bro.</p>
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		<title>By: ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-904334</link>
		<dc:creator>ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-904334</guid>
		<description>As a current college student, I couldn&#039;t agree more with the idea that the amount of time you put in to your school work = better grades. I know the amount of time that I put in to my work is fairly indicative of the grades I receive. 

I hear the slogan &quot;C&#039;s get degrees&quot; all the time.  That very well may be true, but C&#039;s don&#039;t get jobs or admission in to graduate school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a current college student, I couldn&#8217;t agree more with the idea that the amount of time you put in to your school work = better grades. I know the amount of time that I put in to my work is fairly indicative of the grades I receive. </p>
<p>I hear the slogan &#8220;C&#8217;s get degrees&#8221; all the time.  That very well may be true, but C&#8217;s don&#8217;t get jobs or admission in to graduate school.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/12/whats-the-matter-with-higher-ed-too-much-talk-about-degrees-not-enough-talk-about-achievement/comment-page-1/#comment-904318</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17129#comment-904318</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Because really, a lot of college success is just down to RTFM.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Yes!  Thank you, ADM.  And no, I&#039;m not saying that &quot;students are lazy.&quot;  I&#039;m saying that they have decisions to make about how to spend their time.  I will freely confess that students are subjected to mixed and even conflicting messages about what college is all about, not just from the culture at large but also from their own institutions of higher education.  (After all, what does the promotion of semi-pro sports do for the academic mission?  Why do universities tolerate or even encourage tailgating?  What does the withdrawl of state and federal support for colleges and universities communicate about the importance of the life of the mind?)

I&#039;m not &lt;i&gt;blaming&lt;/i&gt; the students entirely for falling prey to these messages.  I&#039;m merely pointing out that those who prioritize their academic work do better in school and in my opinion end up with a better bargain at the far end of college than do their peers who prioritize anything other than their academic success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Because really, a lot of college success is just down to RTFM.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Yes!  Thank you, ADM.  And no, I&#8217;m not saying that &#8220;students are lazy.&#8221;  I&#8217;m saying that they have decisions to make about how to spend their time.  I will freely confess that students are subjected to mixed and even conflicting messages about what college is all about, not just from the culture at large but also from their own institutions of higher education.  (After all, what does the promotion of semi-pro sports do for the academic mission?  Why do universities tolerate or even encourage tailgating?  What does the withdrawl of state and federal support for colleges and universities communicate about the importance of the life of the mind?)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not <i>blaming</i> the students entirely for falling prey to these messages.  I&#8217;m merely pointing out that those who prioritize their academic work do better in school and in my opinion end up with a better bargain at the far end of college than do their peers who prioritize anything other than their academic success.</p>
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