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	<title>Comments on: An elegy for the apostrophe, and a defense thereof (in a manner of speakin&#8217;.)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-1104966</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 14:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17044#comment-1104966</guid>
		<description>The apostrophe is unique to the English language, isn&#039;t it? I saw be proud. Twas the night before Christmas.....I also love the King James version of the Bible. I really can&#039;t enjoy any other version. Was just in Uganda this summer and began more quickly that I would have imagined to use the word shall and other colloquial ways the Ugandans speak English. It was cute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The apostrophe is unique to the English language, isn&#8217;t it? I saw be proud. Twas the night before Christmas&#8230;..I also love the King James version of the Bible. I really can&#8217;t enjoy any other version. Was just in Uganda this summer and began more quickly that I would have imagined to use the word shall and other colloquial ways the Ugandans speak English. It was cute.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-912527</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17044#comment-912527</guid>
		<description>&#039;Twasn&#039;t what I was thinking.
&#039;Tisn&#039;t very useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Twasn&#8217;t what I was thinking.<br />
&#8216;Tisn&#8217;t very useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-899609</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2011 13:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Late to the party as always, but I wanted to add one thing that historians do that make my colleagues in other disciplines crazy. For us, the possessive of a name that ends with s has the added bonus of an &#039;s.  Not Shays&#039; but Shays&#039;s.  My best friend, the anthropologist, waxes eloquent about how idiotic she finds this.  (She also hates footnotes, but that&#039;s another story.)

I tell my students that colonist is not equivalent to deer, the same in the singular or plural. They laugh, and then they remember to add the s. Thanks for the they-don&#039;t-hear-the-final-s explanation, for I, too, have always been puzzled by that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late to the party as always, but I wanted to add one thing that historians do that make my colleagues in other disciplines crazy. For us, the possessive of a name that ends with s has the added bonus of an &#8216;s.  Not Shays&#8217; but Shays&#8217;s.  My best friend, the anthropologist, waxes eloquent about how idiotic she finds this.  (She also hates footnotes, but that&#8217;s another story.)</p>
<p>I tell my students that colonist is not equivalent to deer, the same in the singular or plural. They laugh, and then they remember to add the s. Thanks for the they-don&#8217;t-hear-the-final-s explanation, for I, too, have always been puzzled by that.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-899603</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2011 13:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17044#comment-899603</guid>
		<description>Right on!  Thanks, TR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right on!  Thanks, TR.</p>
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		<title>By: Tenured Radical</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-899552</link>
		<dc:creator>Tenured Radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2011 11:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17044#comment-899552</guid>
		<description>OK, so if we are giving up on the apostrophe, why not give up on everything students don&#039;t learn in high school?  I know that is an extreme response (I&#039;m given to them) but writing is a craft, in addition to conveying simple information in as clear a way as possible. Would you make a chest of drawers with no handles, on the theory one could simply grasp the edges with one&#039;s fingertips?  No! I say, No!

Can we do the ellipse next time?  The misuse of the ellipse drives me insane.  Or how about the crazy, weird $hit students give you for footnotes, when all they would have to do is copy the style that is in the book they are actually writing about.

I think certain kinds of gatekeeping are just fine, particularly when we have to imagine that at least some of our students will be expected to use proper punctuation in the world.  The interwebz hasn&#039;t changed everyzings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so if we are giving up on the apostrophe, why not give up on everything students don&#8217;t learn in high school?  I know that is an extreme response (I&#8217;m given to them) but writing is a craft, in addition to conveying simple information in as clear a way as possible. Would you make a chest of drawers with no handles, on the theory one could simply grasp the edges with one&#8217;s fingertips?  No! I say, No!</p>
<p>Can we do the ellipse next time?  The misuse of the ellipse drives me insane.  Or how about the crazy, weird $hit students give you for footnotes, when all they would have to do is copy the style that is in the book they are actually writing about.</p>
<p>I think certain kinds of gatekeeping are just fine, particularly when we have to imagine that at least some of our students will be expected to use proper punctuation in the world.  The interwebz hasn&#8217;t changed everyzings.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-899082</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17044#comment-899082</guid>
		<description>And I should confess: I teach English (and I expect my students to write Standard Written English)!  I am totally a gatekeeper!  I actually don&#039;t have anything against gatekeepers: but I do believe we should be up-front and straightforward about when we are engaged in gatekeeping.

But then again, I also think it&#039;s okay for some people to say, &quot;I don&#039;t want to be inside your gated community,&quot; and I can respect that choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I should confess: I teach English (and I expect my students to write Standard Written English)!  I am totally a gatekeeper!  I actually don&#8217;t have anything against gatekeepers: but I do believe we should be up-front and straightforward about when we are engaged in gatekeeping.</p>
<p>But then again, I also think it&#8217;s okay for some people to say, &#8220;I don&#8217;t want to be inside your gated community,&#8221; and I can respect that choice.</p>
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		<title>By: TSS</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-898884</link>
		<dc:creator>TSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2011 04:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17044#comment-898884</guid>
		<description>The above discussion about students&#039; inability to put an &quot;s&quot; on &quot;colonist&quot; reminds me of a common bit of creeping illiteracy that I&#039;ve been seeing in student papers:  failure to add &quot;ed&quot; to words (participles, I think?  Are those the ones you get when you make a noun into an adjective by adding &quot;ed?&quot;) in which the &quot;ed&quot; sound is muted in speech.  I get papers saying that &quot;Fred is bias&quot; or &quot;Jill is prejudice.&quot;  The other day, I saw a usually-literate blogger ranting about these weird new sneakers that claim to &quot;make you look tone.&quot;  To all of this I say: AAAAAAAARGH!  And also NOOOOOOOO!  Stop immediately!  I command that an emergency shipment of &quot;ed&quot; ending be sent to keyboards around the world ASAP.  

TSS, who confesses to being both biased and prejudiced against students who cannot form adjectives properly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The above discussion about students&#8217; inability to put an &#8220;s&#8221; on &#8220;colonist&#8221; reminds me of a common bit of creeping illiteracy that I&#8217;ve been seeing in student papers:  failure to add &#8220;ed&#8221; to words (participles, I think?  Are those the ones you get when you make a noun into an adjective by adding &#8220;ed?&#8221;) in which the &#8220;ed&#8221; sound is muted in speech.  I get papers saying that &#8220;Fred is bias&#8221; or &#8220;Jill is prejudice.&#8221;  The other day, I saw a usually-literate blogger ranting about these weird new sneakers that claim to &#8220;make you look tone.&#8221;  To all of this I say: AAAAAAAARGH!  And also NOOOOOOOO!  Stop immediately!  I command that an emergency shipment of &#8220;ed&#8221; ending be sent to keyboards around the world ASAP.  </p>
<p>TSS, who confesses to being both biased and prejudiced against students who cannot form adjectives properly</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-898568</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17044#comment-898568</guid>
		<description>Great points about usefulness, Tom.  I guess that&#039;s what makes us apostrophe pedants so tiresome:  we know perfectly well what they mean, but we&#039;re criticizing their punctuation (or lack thereof) anyway!

But, to the contrary, I&#039;d argue that the proper use of the apostrophe is something that editors and peer-reviewers of all kinds of professional writing, journalism in magazine &amp; newspapers, etc. know well and probably use in making decisions about hiring staff.  So I&#039;d argue that rather than being a gatekeeper by enforcing correct use of the apostrophe, I&#039;m offering my students some of the keys that will unlock gates for them.

If nothing else, I think that the correct use of the apostrophe can be very useful in graduate admissions.  At least, I rarely if ever have run into a really great grad student who was either still confused about or hadn&#039;t bothered to figure out the proper use of the apostrophe.  Perhaps it&#039;s a talisman for finding students who will care about getting other details right? (But I guess that would make me a gatekeeper after all.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great points about usefulness, Tom.  I guess that&#8217;s what makes us apostrophe pedants so tiresome:  we know perfectly well what they mean, but we&#8217;re criticizing their punctuation (or lack thereof) anyway!</p>
<p>But, to the contrary, I&#8217;d argue that the proper use of the apostrophe is something that editors and peer-reviewers of all kinds of professional writing, journalism in magazine &#038; newspapers, etc. know well and probably use in making decisions about hiring staff.  So I&#8217;d argue that rather than being a gatekeeper by enforcing correct use of the apostrophe, I&#8217;m offering my students some of the keys that will unlock gates for them.</p>
<p>If nothing else, I think that the correct use of the apostrophe can be very useful in graduate admissions.  At least, I rarely if ever have run into a really great grad student who was either still confused about or hadn&#8217;t bothered to figure out the proper use of the apostrophe.  Perhaps it&#8217;s a talisman for finding students who will care about getting other details right? (But I guess that would make me a gatekeeper after all.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-898537</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=17044#comment-898537</guid>
		<description>Historiann--

I think Rustonite was, rather, suggesting that a) this change may have already passed us by; and b) you may find it useful but many folks clearly do not find it useful (or else find it useful in ways which you--and others--do not approve of).  

If scholars are mere gatekeepers, we need to acknowledge that role; if &quot;usefulness&quot; is the key criterion, then a huge number of English writers find apostrophes &quot;useful&quot; for plurals.  

And lest I be seen as too liberal by some readers: I personally have a visceral reaction to an apostrophe that&#039;s used in what I believe to be a &quot;wrong&quot; way: but I don&#039;t know if I have ever been truly uncertain about what the writer meant.  Quite the opposite: generally, my conviction that what I&#039;m reading is &#039;wrong&#039; is supported by my confidence that I have, in fact, correctly understood the intended meaning as well as understood what the &#039;correct&#039; way to present that meaning is.  Likewise I can&#039;t remember ever being confused when a speaker said [Its] about whether or not it was a possessive pronoun or a contraction.  &quot;Wrong&quot; apostrophe use is &quot;wrong in form&quot; but it is typically not unclear in terms of meaning.  I am more likely to pretend confusion over such a matter than to be truly confused, at least in the examples I typically run into in student papers and on the street.  

It&#039;s the fact that &quot;correct&quot; apostrophe use rarely actually clarifies intended meaning that leads so many writers to decide it is not &quot;useful&quot; to their writing (or not useful enough to them to encourage them to learn the standard rules).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann&#8211;</p>
<p>I think Rustonite was, rather, suggesting that a) this change may have already passed us by; and b) you may find it useful but many folks clearly do not find it useful (or else find it useful in ways which you&#8211;and others&#8211;do not approve of).  </p>
<p>If scholars are mere gatekeepers, we need to acknowledge that role; if &#8220;usefulness&#8221; is the key criterion, then a huge number of English writers find apostrophes &#8220;useful&#8221; for plurals.  </p>
<p>And lest I be seen as too liberal by some readers: I personally have a visceral reaction to an apostrophe that&#8217;s used in what I believe to be a &#8220;wrong&#8221; way: but I don&#8217;t know if I have ever been truly uncertain about what the writer meant.  Quite the opposite: generally, my conviction that what I&#8217;m reading is &#8216;wrong&#8217; is supported by my confidence that I have, in fact, correctly understood the intended meaning as well as understood what the &#8216;correct&#8217; way to present that meaning is.  Likewise I can&#8217;t remember ever being confused when a speaker said [Its] about whether or not it was a possessive pronoun or a contraction.  &#8220;Wrong&#8221; apostrophe use is &#8220;wrong in form&#8221; but it is typically not unclear in terms of meaning.  I am more likely to pretend confusion over such a matter than to be truly confused, at least in the examples I typically run into in student papers and on the street.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the fact that &#8220;correct&#8221; apostrophe use rarely actually clarifies intended meaning that leads so many writers to decide it is not &#8220;useful&#8221; to their writing (or not useful enough to them to encourage them to learn the standard rules).</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/11/02/an-elegy-for-the-apostrophe-and-a-defense-thereof-in-a-manner-of-speakin/comment-page-1/#comment-898464</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wate?  R U sayin tht all chng is gud &amp; must nt b resistd?

Srsly?

I always thought that &quot;-ly&quot; was just the anglicized pronunciation of the Germanic &quot;lich&quot; suffix, so is it really a &quot;mistake?&quot;

I think scholars should stand for what&#039;s useful rather than unexamined tradition.  And I believe the apostrophe is still useful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wate?  R U sayin tht all chng is gud &#038; must nt b resistd?</p>
<p>Srsly?</p>
<p>I always thought that &#8220;-ly&#8221; was just the anglicized pronunciation of the Germanic &#8220;lich&#8221; suffix, so is it really a &#8220;mistake?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think scholars should stand for what&#8217;s useful rather than unexamined tradition.  And I believe the apostrophe is still useful!</p>
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