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	<title>Comments on: Teevee not for tots&#8211;but online Kindergarten = awesome?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-894065</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-894065</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s worth noting that life is Lord of the Flies, plenty of grown women obsess over clothing labels and celebrity gossip, adult bullies abound, drugs and sex remain popular, and most jobs reward obedience and punish creativity and socially aberrant behavior.

Disliking society&#039;s major drawbacks isn&#039;t necessarily an argument about school itself.  

It&#039;s always odd to me when people deliberately remove their children from mainstream cultural influences and then turn around and claim that those children do NOT have trouble relating to their peers. 

I guess it makes me wonder why they care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that life is Lord of the Flies, plenty of grown women obsess over clothing labels and celebrity gossip, adult bullies abound, drugs and sex remain popular, and most jobs reward obedience and punish creativity and socially aberrant behavior.</p>
<p>Disliking society&#8217;s major drawbacks isn&#8217;t necessarily an argument about school itself.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s always odd to me when people deliberately remove their children from mainstream cultural influences and then turn around and claim that those children do NOT have trouble relating to their peers. </p>
<p>I guess it makes me wonder why they care.</p>
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		<title>By: Debbie S.</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-893521</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-893521</guid>
		<description>Wow - a lot of online school/homeschool bashing going on here. I come from a family of brick &amp; mortar teachers going back several generations on both sides, but my husband (also a brick &amp; mortar educator with a parent who was a brick &amp; mortar educator) and I pulled our 7th grader out of the local public school and enrolled her in online public school this year. Why? She wanted to learn MORE - but not more of what daily interaction in the &quot;Lord of the Flies&quot; environment of middle school teaches.

She wanted to learn CONTENT, KNOWLEDGE, INFORMATION, and USEFUL SKILLS. Being in a classroom with 30 kids and walking the halls with hundreds was teaching her which clothes and labels were &quot;in,&quot; which teenage boy singers were &quot;hot,&quot; which kids had access to drugs and were having sex, and which bullies (many of whom had been bullying since elementary school) the school was going to ignore. It was also teaching her to be passive about her education and that her future in this system was going to be determined by someone&#039;s assessment of how well she played the school &quot;game.&quot;

Her elementary school was fantastic, yet kindergarten and first grade were an educational waste. The social &quot;skills&quot; she learned were how to do what the person in charge tells you to do, how creativity will generally get you into trouble, and how the kids who disrupt the class have the power to gain the attention they crave and ruin the educational environment for the rest of the students.

Frankly, I wish I would have blinked away the brick and mortar hypnosis a LONG time ago. She is now WAY more responsible for her own learning, spending much MORE time in meaningful curriculum with a learning network that challenges her to improve where she is already strong and helps her further develop those areas where she is weak. 

Is she socially backward? Her girl scout troop members and leaders don&#039;t think so. Neither do the people with whom she horse-back rides and skis, those to whom she serves dinner at the homeless shelter in the neighboring town every month or the kids she helps entertain at our church&#039;s Kids Club each week. She can comfortably interact with all ages of people - both younger and older - and has a respect for everyone&#039;s individual talents and skills, not a desire to be someone she is not.

There are no easy answers to these educational dilemmas - and no answer will be right for every child. Our other child is very happy in a brick and mortar public school (although NOT our local school system). But please don&#039;t condemn from your own ignorance what is working very effectively for some parents and children who care PASSIONATELY about their education and for whom local brick and mortar public school environment just doesn&#039;t work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow &#8211; a lot of online school/homeschool bashing going on here. I come from a family of brick &amp; mortar teachers going back several generations on both sides, but my husband (also a brick &amp; mortar educator with a parent who was a brick &amp; mortar educator) and I pulled our 7th grader out of the local public school and enrolled her in online public school this year. Why? She wanted to learn MORE &#8211; but not more of what daily interaction in the &#8220;Lord of the Flies&#8221; environment of middle school teaches.</p>
<p>She wanted to learn CONTENT, KNOWLEDGE, INFORMATION, and USEFUL SKILLS. Being in a classroom with 30 kids and walking the halls with hundreds was teaching her which clothes and labels were &#8220;in,&#8221; which teenage boy singers were &#8220;hot,&#8221; which kids had access to drugs and were having sex, and which bullies (many of whom had been bullying since elementary school) the school was going to ignore. It was also teaching her to be passive about her education and that her future in this system was going to be determined by someone&#8217;s assessment of how well she played the school &#8220;game.&#8221;</p>
<p>Her elementary school was fantastic, yet kindergarten and first grade were an educational waste. The social &#8220;skills&#8221; she learned were how to do what the person in charge tells you to do, how creativity will generally get you into trouble, and how the kids who disrupt the class have the power to gain the attention they crave and ruin the educational environment for the rest of the students.</p>
<p>Frankly, I wish I would have blinked away the brick and mortar hypnosis a LONG time ago. She is now WAY more responsible for her own learning, spending much MORE time in meaningful curriculum with a learning network that challenges her to improve where she is already strong and helps her further develop those areas where she is weak. </p>
<p>Is she socially backward? Her girl scout troop members and leaders don&#8217;t think so. Neither do the people with whom she horse-back rides and skis, those to whom she serves dinner at the homeless shelter in the neighboring town every month or the kids she helps entertain at our church&#8217;s Kids Club each week. She can comfortably interact with all ages of people &#8211; both younger and older &#8211; and has a respect for everyone&#8217;s individual talents and skills, not a desire to be someone she is not.</p>
<p>There are no easy answers to these educational dilemmas &#8211; and no answer will be right for every child. Our other child is very happy in a brick and mortar public school (although NOT our local school system). But please don&#8217;t condemn from your own ignorance what is working very effectively for some parents and children who care PASSIONATELY about their education and for whom local brick and mortar public school environment just doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
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		<title>By: Tenured Radical - The Chronicle of Higher Education</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-893448</link>
		<dc:creator>Tenured Radical - The Chronicle of Higher Education</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-893448</guid>
		<description>[...] may be a Very Bad Thing for all children, a story being reported chez Historiann. (Go here and here.) Such research  exists alongside manifestos by elite university intellectuals like Mark Taylor [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] may be a Very Bad Thing for all children, a story being reported chez Historiann. (Go here and here.) Such research  exists alongside manifestos by elite university intellectuals like Mark Taylor [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-891833</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-891833</guid>
		<description>Meh.  David Sirota needs to pull up his Pull Ups.  Yes, the money in politics is a big problem--but because the Supreme Court of the U.S. has said that money = speech, AND the fact that his wife&#039;s opponent is a well-connected money guy, Sirota surely can&#039;t be surprised that he&#039;s playing to win.  

My bet is that Emily Sirota&#039;s opponent knows that her husband has *four hours* on commercial radio every weekday here in Metro Denver.  I don&#039;t listen to his show, but how is that not a huge (and hugely unfair) advantage to a candidate also named Sirota?  Funny he doesn&#039;t mention that.

(N.B.  I would vote for Sirota over her opponent if I lived in Denver.  It&#039;s the whining I object to, not the fact that David Sirota wrote a column about the money being poured into a school board race.  How couldn&#039;t they see it coming?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meh.  David Sirota needs to pull up his Pull Ups.  Yes, the money in politics is a big problem&#8211;but because the Supreme Court of the U.S. has said that money = speech, AND the fact that his wife&#8217;s opponent is a well-connected money guy, Sirota surely can&#8217;t be surprised that he&#8217;s playing to win.  </p>
<p>My bet is that Emily Sirota&#8217;s opponent knows that her husband has *four hours* on commercial radio every weekday here in Metro Denver.  I don&#8217;t listen to his show, but how is that not a huge (and hugely unfair) advantage to a candidate also named Sirota?  Funny he doesn&#8217;t mention that.</p>
<p>(N.B.  I would vote for Sirota over her opponent if I lived in Denver.  It&#8217;s the whining I object to, not the fact that David Sirota wrote a column about the money being poured into a school board race.  How couldn&#8217;t they see it coming?)</p>
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		<title>By: Perpetua</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-891822</link>
		<dc:creator>Perpetua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-891822</guid>
		<description>I saw this today, and made me think of this series of discussions.  I don&#039;t know whether to shake my fist or cry:

http://www.salon.com/2011/10/21/w_enters_my_wifes_schoolboard_race/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw this today, and made me think of this series of discussions.  I don&#8217;t know whether to shake my fist or cry:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.salon.com/2011/10/21/w_enters_my_wifes_schoolboard_race/" rel="nofollow">http://www.salon.com/2011/10/21/w_enters_my_wifes_schoolboard_race/</a></p>
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		<title>By: shaz</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-891631</link>
		<dc:creator>shaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2011 02:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-891631</guid>
		<description>Wow, thanks for the reading advice, Dave.  

I&#039;m sure teachers can find ways to use this productively.  But for public schools that have, by 7th grade, 35-40 students in a math class, I really doubt that teachers are able to go up to Jimmy and say: gee, my ipad says you are having trouble.  Great idea, but not happening in that all-too-common situation.  

The online Math Program they mention, Pearson&#039;s Digits has a tag line of: &quot;Optimize Time&quot; and &quot;Personalize Learning&quot;.  Seems to me both of those are ways to remove the teacher from the equation -- just shove more kids in the classroom with a laptop and have them teach themselves. 

My point is: I fear that this technology just allows oversized classes to provide another form of &#039;evidence&#039; of teaching via student performance, as well as replaces an actual investment in teaching and teachers.  

Like I said, I love technology, but it gets credited with magically solving a lot more than it actually does.  And I don&#039;t even want to get into the proprietary and monetary issues associated with all of this... e.g.: prepackaged programs are a far cry from your great idea  of constructing your own textbook for classes (something I&#039;ve been doing for 15 years, and my kids&#039; teacher does with paper...).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, thanks for the reading advice, Dave.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure teachers can find ways to use this productively.  But for public schools that have, by 7th grade, 35-40 students in a math class, I really doubt that teachers are able to go up to Jimmy and say: gee, my ipad says you are having trouble.  Great idea, but not happening in that all-too-common situation.  </p>
<p>The online Math Program they mention, Pearson&#8217;s Digits has a tag line of: &#8220;Optimize Time&#8221; and &#8220;Personalize Learning&#8221;.  Seems to me both of those are ways to remove the teacher from the equation &#8212; just shove more kids in the classroom with a laptop and have them teach themselves. </p>
<p>My point is: I fear that this technology just allows oversized classes to provide another form of &#8216;evidence&#8217; of teaching via student performance, as well as replaces an actual investment in teaching and teachers.  </p>
<p>Like I said, I love technology, but it gets credited with magically solving a lot more than it actually does.  And I don&#8217;t even want to get into the proprietary and monetary issues associated with all of this&#8230; e.g.: prepackaged programs are a far cry from your great idea  of constructing your own textbook for classes (something I&#8217;ve been doing for 15 years, and my kids&#8217; teacher does with paper&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>By: Western Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-891502</link>
		<dc:creator>Western Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-891502</guid>
		<description>But the thing is the walk around the room isn&#039;t efficient if you don&#039;t have the right information.  Kids usually have only a vague idea of whether they actually understand something or not, and even when they don&#039;t, they often lie to the teacher because they are embarrassed.  Here, the teacher can look over the work the kid did that day, see what the kid did and didn&#039;t get and then walk around the room right then or the next day and say things like, &quot;I saw you were having trouble with quadratic equations, what&#039;s up with that?&quot; and go from there.  This is a major improvement.  The teacher isn&#039;t monitoring test results, they&#039;re getting feedback from the work down in class that day.  Please read the article more carefully.   It&#039;s like having the teacher check the hw everyday (shocker) but faster and based on real time feedback (so less copying from the answers in the back or your friend&#039;s hw). 

This is sometimes called &quot;teaching backwards.&quot;  Kids learn the content at home, then practice the skill in class.  History classes often run this way (kids read a chapter, or some documents then the teacher uses discussion prompts or slides or documents in class to work on a specific skill).  While it seems perfectly normal for history classes, and to a certain extent, in Science (think labs) it&#039;s apparently pretty new in math classes although there were earlier attempts at individuated instruction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the thing is the walk around the room isn&#8217;t efficient if you don&#8217;t have the right information.  Kids usually have only a vague idea of whether they actually understand something or not, and even when they don&#8217;t, they often lie to the teacher because they are embarrassed.  Here, the teacher can look over the work the kid did that day, see what the kid did and didn&#8217;t get and then walk around the room right then or the next day and say things like, &#8220;I saw you were having trouble with quadratic equations, what&#8217;s up with that?&#8221; and go from there.  This is a major improvement.  The teacher isn&#8217;t monitoring test results, they&#8217;re getting feedback from the work down in class that day.  Please read the article more carefully.   It&#8217;s like having the teacher check the hw everyday (shocker) but faster and based on real time feedback (so less copying from the answers in the back or your friend&#8217;s hw). </p>
<p>This is sometimes called &#8220;teaching backwards.&#8221;  Kids learn the content at home, then practice the skill in class.  History classes often run this way (kids read a chapter, or some documents then the teacher uses discussion prompts or slides or documents in class to work on a specific skill).  While it seems perfectly normal for history classes, and to a certain extent, in Science (think labs) it&#8217;s apparently pretty new in math classes although there were earlier attempts at individuated instruction.</p>
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		<title>By: shaz</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-891483</link>
		<dc:creator>shaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-891483</guid>
		<description>I probably have a middling position: Technology isn&#039;t inherently bad.  I&#039;d love my son to exchange his 25 lb backpack of textbooks for an ipad.  He&#039;d be much more willing to walk the 2K to school -- good for the body.

But, despite liking tech more than H&#039;ann, I&#039;m not at all convinced that technology necessarily adds value -- and can subtract.  E.g.: the line in Tony&#039;s cited article: &quot;Software wirelessly recorded the children’s performance in a file that the teacher would review that night. [A teacher reports]: “Last year I’d have to walk around and ask every kid how it’s going...&quot;

The notion that &#039;asking kids how it&#039;s going&#039; (e.g.: interaction) is not a crucial part of teaching is horrifying.  How many of us have changed a lecture/discussion upon realizing we weren&#039;t hitting the mark? Or learned more from a discussion with a student than a test result?  

Horrifying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I probably have a middling position: Technology isn&#8217;t inherently bad.  I&#8217;d love my son to exchange his 25 lb backpack of textbooks for an ipad.  He&#8217;d be much more willing to walk the 2K to school &#8212; good for the body.</p>
<p>But, despite liking tech more than H&#8217;ann, I&#8217;m not at all convinced that technology necessarily adds value &#8212; and can subtract.  E.g.: the line in Tony&#8217;s cited article: &#8220;Software wirelessly recorded the children’s performance in a file that the teacher would review that night. [A teacher reports]: “Last year I’d have to walk around and ask every kid how it’s going&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>The notion that &#8216;asking kids how it&#8217;s going&#8217; (e.g.: interaction) is not a crucial part of teaching is horrifying.  How many of us have changed a lecture/discussion upon realizing we weren&#8217;t hitting the mark? Or learned more from a discussion with a student than a test result?  </p>
<p>Horrifying.</p>
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		<title>By: Western Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-891197</link>
		<dc:creator>Western Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-891197</guid>
		<description>OK, online Kindergarten is a baaaaaaaad, idea.  But I teach in a school that is about as technologically cutting edge as you can get and sorry Tony Grafton, but I&#039;m looking forward towards electronic textbooks for a variety of reasons.  A) Most HS history textbooks suck.  It will be possible very, very soon, however, to assemble my own textbooks using bits from out of print versions that I can&#039;t currently buy that are better, college textbooks with specific readable chapters, articles, primary docs, etc.  When we can do this and have the kids read and annotate on an i-pad, we&#039;ll move to that model.  Bells and whistles are already in most textbooks and many of them are as useless as online bells and whistles.  Quite frankly, the laptop ipad gadget for individualized instruction described beats the hell out of the individualized math programs we had in the 70s and 80s with grease pencils and laminated instruction.  Notice that this district didn&#039;t think it would be cheap.  They poured massive resources into physical plant, teacher re-training, etc.  They are doing it right.  They&#039;re wasn&#039;t a word in the article about cheaper.

But online Kindergarten?  Blech.  In our K-12, the kids in kindergarten use the smartboards and ipads in twos and threes, not alone.  And the smarttable really is going to be fantastic for special ed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, online Kindergarten is a baaaaaaaad, idea.  But I teach in a school that is about as technologically cutting edge as you can get and sorry Tony Grafton, but I&#8217;m looking forward towards electronic textbooks for a variety of reasons.  A) Most HS history textbooks suck.  It will be possible very, very soon, however, to assemble my own textbooks using bits from out of print versions that I can&#8217;t currently buy that are better, college textbooks with specific readable chapters, articles, primary docs, etc.  When we can do this and have the kids read and annotate on an i-pad, we&#8217;ll move to that model.  Bells and whistles are already in most textbooks and many of them are as useless as online bells and whistles.  Quite frankly, the laptop ipad gadget for individualized instruction described beats the hell out of the individualized math programs we had in the 70s and 80s with grease pencils and laminated instruction.  Notice that this district didn&#8217;t think it would be cheap.  They poured massive resources into physical plant, teacher re-training, etc.  They are doing it right.  They&#8217;re wasn&#8217;t a word in the article about cheaper.</p>
<p>But online Kindergarten?  Blech.  In our K-12, the kids in kindergarten use the smartboards and ipads in twos and threes, not alone.  And the smarttable really is going to be fantastic for special ed.</p>
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		<title>By: undine</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/10/19/teevee-not-for-tots-but-online-kindergarten-awesome/comment-page-1/#comment-891193</link>
		<dc:creator>undine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16980#comment-891193</guid>
		<description>These links are dismaying. Kindergarten teaches you that not everyone is like you, that others can do things better than you can (like skip), and that you&#039;ll survive even if people aren&#039;t friendly (as H&#039;ann described). 

Why is it that American education thinks everything has to be good for everyone at all times, like radioactive water in the 1900s? (http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-08/healthy-glow-drink-radiation) 

And why don&#039;t I have a helicopter in my driveway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These links are dismaying. Kindergarten teaches you that not everyone is like you, that others can do things better than you can (like skip), and that you&#8217;ll survive even if people aren&#8217;t friendly (as H&#8217;ann described). </p>
<p>Why is it that American education thinks everything has to be good for everyone at all times, like radioactive water in the 1900s? (<a href="http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-08/healthy-glow-drink-radiation" rel="nofollow">http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-08/healthy-glow-drink-radiation</a>) </p>
<p>And why don&#8217;t I have a helicopter in my driveway?</p>
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