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	<title>Comments on: Harris-Perry to Joan Walsh:  we are so not friends!</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Comrade PhysioProf</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-881877</link>
		<dc:creator>Comrade PhysioProf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2011 01:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-881877</guid>
		<description>Other than Glenn Greenwald, Salon is complete utter swill designed to make people who consider themselves liberals to feel all good about themselves. It is nothing but a left-wing version of Parade Magazine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other than Glenn Greenwald, Salon is complete utter swill designed to make people who consider themselves liberals to feel all good about themselves. It is nothing but a left-wing version of Parade Magazine.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-880768</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2011 15:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-880768</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s totally unfair to say that she&#039;s &quot;completely unqualified,&quot; but you raise an interesting point about the conflicting demands of punditry versus academic discourse.  This gap is why &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/13/history-under-attack-part-ii-can-splitters-be-polemicists/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I&#039;ve questioned the usefulness of historians to any particular political agenda&lt;/a&gt;, because we are drawn to nuance rather than the stark arguments that drive political discourse.  My sense is that most academic Political Scientists are also a lot more nuanced and careful in the conclusions they draw than most political pundits.  It may be an irreconcilable gulf.

A hell of a lot of white pundits flaunt their academic credentials to appear as teevee historians and discuss things in ways that professional historians find laughable:  e.g. Doris Kerns Goodwin, Michael Bechschloss, etc.  They don&#039;t do primary source-based research to come up with novel arguments in their snoozeriffic celebretory and historical celebrity-driven presidential histories--they&#039;re essentially popularizers.  And yet their dubious comparisons in presidential history don&#039;t get the kind of flack that MHP is getting.  

(Gene Lyons&#039;s article is a good example of the sneering condescention MHP has drawn.  But then, Lyons is an old Arkansas journalist who knows very intimately the trashing of the Clintons, so while I think he makes some interesting points he surely could have done it without the personal trashing of MHP and her academic credentials.)

So I would argue that race is everywhere in this whole dustup; I&#039;m just not persuaded by Harris-Perry&#039;s arguments with respect to white progressives&#039; evaluation of the Obama presidency.  Who knows--she may be right, but we won&#039;t know for at least another 13 months for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s totally unfair to say that she&#8217;s &#8220;completely unqualified,&#8221; but you raise an interesting point about the conflicting demands of punditry versus academic discourse.  This gap is why <a href="http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/13/history-under-attack-part-ii-can-splitters-be-polemicists/" rel="nofollow">I&#8217;ve questioned the usefulness of historians to any particular political agenda</a>, because we are drawn to nuance rather than the stark arguments that drive political discourse.  My sense is that most academic Political Scientists are also a lot more nuanced and careful in the conclusions they draw than most political pundits.  It may be an irreconcilable gulf.</p>
<p>A hell of a lot of white pundits flaunt their academic credentials to appear as teevee historians and discuss things in ways that professional historians find laughable:  e.g. Doris Kerns Goodwin, Michael Bechschloss, etc.  They don&#8217;t do primary source-based research to come up with novel arguments in their snoozeriffic celebretory and historical celebrity-driven presidential histories&#8211;they&#8217;re essentially popularizers.  And yet their dubious comparisons in presidential history don&#8217;t get the kind of flack that MHP is getting.  </p>
<p>(Gene Lyons&#8217;s article is a good example of the sneering condescention MHP has drawn.  But then, Lyons is an old Arkansas journalist who knows very intimately the trashing of the Clintons, so while I think he makes some interesting points he surely could have done it without the personal trashing of MHP and her academic credentials.)</p>
<p>So I would argue that race is everywhere in this whole dustup; I&#8217;m just not persuaded by Harris-Perry&#8217;s arguments with respect to white progressives&#8217; evaluation of the Obama presidency.  Who knows&#8211;she may be right, but we won&#8217;t know for at least another 13 months for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: schmandt</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-880595</link>
		<dc:creator>schmandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2011 05:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-880595</guid>
		<description>&quot;decades of research, publication and university teaching&quot;

MHP is BS&#039;ing all the way in her first article.  As  political scientist she compares the obama presidency with the clinton presidency without even mentioning the economy?  without comparing how clinton stood down house republicans and won huge victory when he called their bluff and let them shut down the government and stuck them with the blame, while Obama caved at every step? 

Her first article was miles away from a real professional level political argument where you are supposed to make valid comparisons and not just make stuff up at random.

Her defense is even weaker.  Many, many comments on Salon addressed the legitimate reasons that progressives are disgusted with Obama.  So many things that are utterly obvious yet she ignored completely to claim race is involved.  Instead of admitting that she was wrong she doubled down.

Look, if you want to make that kind of argument as a random talking head, OK, it gets attention at least, and maybe you think you have a mission to raise consciousness on race.  But her argument was so, so far away from serious political science that to bring up her academic credentials to defend that article in any way is amazingly ignorant.  

She goes on TV behind her academic credentials.  These 2 articles expose her as completely unqualified.  There is a certain professional level of argument, marshaling of facts and data and logic and a way that fellow professionals have to acknowledge.  That was totally absent from these 2 articles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;decades of research, publication and university teaching&#8221;</p>
<p>MHP is BS&#8217;ing all the way in her first article.  As  political scientist she compares the obama presidency with the clinton presidency without even mentioning the economy?  without comparing how clinton stood down house republicans and won huge victory when he called their bluff and let them shut down the government and stuck them with the blame, while Obama caved at every step? </p>
<p>Her first article was miles away from a real professional level political argument where you are supposed to make valid comparisons and not just make stuff up at random.</p>
<p>Her defense is even weaker.  Many, many comments on Salon addressed the legitimate reasons that progressives are disgusted with Obama.  So many things that are utterly obvious yet she ignored completely to claim race is involved.  Instead of admitting that she was wrong she doubled down.</p>
<p>Look, if you want to make that kind of argument as a random talking head, OK, it gets attention at least, and maybe you think you have a mission to raise consciousness on race.  But her argument was so, so far away from serious political science that to bring up her academic credentials to defend that article in any way is amazingly ignorant.  </p>
<p>She goes on TV behind her academic credentials.  These 2 articles expose her as completely unqualified.  There is a certain professional level of argument, marshaling of facts and data and logic and a way that fellow professionals have to acknowledge.  That was totally absent from these 2 articles.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-880344</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-880344</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...whatever we might think of Harris-Perry’s claims regarding Obama’s dwindling support, the larger point of the prevalence of subtle racism among the left is demonstrated amply.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230;whatever we might think of Harris-Perry’s claims regarding Obama’s dwindling support, the larger point of the prevalence of subtle racism among the left is demonstrated amply.</i></p>
<p>Yes!</p>
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		<title>By: gxm17</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-880340</link>
		<dc:creator>gxm17</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-880340</guid>
		<description>anonymous, let me remind you that you&#039;re the one who brought up &quot;poor white voters&quot; and &quot;openly plutocratic white candidates.&quot; And you&#039;re the one who appears to support the notion that a plutocrat&#039;s skin color is meaningful. Or am I just &lt;i&gt;imagining&lt;/i&gt; that you appear to be calling yourself out as a &quot;privilege denier&quot;?

It seems to me that there are a lot of people trying to obscure the reality that the economy is in the toilet and people need work. This will not be lost on the people who are living the reality. Hard times will decide the next presidential election, not skin color. And folks who are colorstruck will need to just deal with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anonymous, let me remind you that you&#8217;re the one who brought up &#8220;poor white voters&#8221; and &#8220;openly plutocratic white candidates.&#8221; And you&#8217;re the one who appears to support the notion that a plutocrat&#8217;s skin color is meaningful. Or am I just <i>imagining</i> that you appear to be calling yourself out as a &#8220;privilege denier&#8221;?</p>
<p>It seems to me that there are a lot of people trying to obscure the reality that the economy is in the toilet and people need work. This will not be lost on the people who are living the reality. Hard times will decide the next presidential election, not skin color. And folks who are colorstruck will need to just deal with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Perpetua</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-880338</link>
		<dc:creator>Perpetua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-880338</guid>
		<description>Going back to anon&#039;s link to the Lyons response to Harris-Perry&#039;s piece: It&#039;s actually a genius response because exposes every single trope of sexist racist anti-intellectualism of lefty menz everywhere.  In one article!  Not an easy thing to accomplish, but there it is - whatever we might think of Harris-Perry&#039;s claims regarding Obama&#039;s dwindling support, the larger point of the prevalence of subtle racism among the left is demonstrated amply.  It&#039;s not often that my breath is taken away by the racism &amp; sexism in a Salon piece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going back to anon&#8217;s link to the Lyons response to Harris-Perry&#8217;s piece: It&#8217;s actually a genius response because exposes every single trope of sexist racist anti-intellectualism of lefty menz everywhere.  In one article!  Not an easy thing to accomplish, but there it is &#8211; whatever we might think of Harris-Perry&#8217;s claims regarding Obama&#8217;s dwindling support, the larger point of the prevalence of subtle racism among the left is demonstrated amply.  It&#8217;s not often that my breath is taken away by the racism &amp; sexism in a Salon piece.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-880329</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-880329</guid>
		<description>Very well said.  &quot;Class&quot; is also a current favorite of privilege-deniers because they don&#039;t have to use their imagination; 99% of the population get to point out that they&#039;re not part of the 1% who &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; run everything -- the implication being that if you&#039;re not a billionaire, you&#039;re not an oppressor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well said.  &#8220;Class&#8221; is also a current favorite of privilege-deniers because they don&#8217;t have to use their imagination; 99% of the population get to point out that they&#8217;re not part of the 1% who <i>really</i> run everything &#8212; the implication being that if you&#8217;re not a billionaire, you&#8217;re not an oppressor.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-880270</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 13:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-880270</guid>
		<description>Well said, Claire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Claire.</p>
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		<title>By: Claire K.</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-880062</link>
		<dc:creator>Claire K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 05:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-880062</guid>
		<description>The friendship thing was weird all around.  I was surprised when I read Walsh&#039;s claim that she and Harris-Perry were friends and surprised when Harris-Perry responded by saying outright that they weren&#039;t friends.  Walsh shouldn&#039;t have said it, because it was presumptuous, unnecessary and pressures Harris-Perry to either stay silent or respond in kind but Harris-Perry&#039;s response would have been more graceful if she had left out the denial of friendship.  

Walsh provided some good evidence that racism is at least not the main cause of Obama&#039;s dwindling support, but there was a troubling thread of &quot;postracial&quot; wistfulness running through her response that became obvious at the end when she claimed class was a more important issue than race.  (I&#039;m not getting into the race/class argument going on above, which is slightly different.)  I think feminists of all races have seen privileged dudes derailing conversations on gender issues in a similar way: &quot;Sure, maybe bad things happen to women sometimes but isn&#039;t class the real issue here?&quot; and so on.  Any time someone asserts that one axis of oppression is more important than another it leads somewhere bad and class is a favorite of privilege-deniers because it&#039;s much easier to imagine that one is or has been at some point in life poor than to imagine that one is a different sex or race.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The friendship thing was weird all around.  I was surprised when I read Walsh&#8217;s claim that she and Harris-Perry were friends and surprised when Harris-Perry responded by saying outright that they weren&#8217;t friends.  Walsh shouldn&#8217;t have said it, because it was presumptuous, unnecessary and pressures Harris-Perry to either stay silent or respond in kind but Harris-Perry&#8217;s response would have been more graceful if she had left out the denial of friendship.  </p>
<p>Walsh provided some good evidence that racism is at least not the main cause of Obama&#8217;s dwindling support, but there was a troubling thread of &#8220;postracial&#8221; wistfulness running through her response that became obvious at the end when she claimed class was a more important issue than race.  (I&#8217;m not getting into the race/class argument going on above, which is slightly different.)  I think feminists of all races have seen privileged dudes derailing conversations on gender issues in a similar way: &#8220;Sure, maybe bad things happen to women sometimes but isn&#8217;t class the real issue here?&#8221; and so on.  Any time someone asserts that one axis of oppression is more important than another it leads somewhere bad and class is a favorite of privilege-deniers because it&#8217;s much easier to imagine that one is or has been at some point in life poor than to imagine that one is a different sex or race.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/09/27/harris-perry-to-joan-walsh-we-are-so-not-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-879863</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=16720#comment-879863</guid>
		<description>&quot;If he were the only black American, a tree would fall in the forest and no one would care.

Since he’s not, of course it matters.&quot;

But not to the people voting against him because he&#039;s a plutocrat who&#039;s in the process of deeply fucking them over.  Again, all you&#039;re doing is isolating out his race and then pointing at it and going &quot;The only meaningful difference *I* can see is his race. Therefore it must mean something meaningful.&quot;

At the end of the day, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  A plutocrat in any color is going to fuck over the poor and middle class.  And race analysis is cheap, easy and comes with the convenient class-based scapegoats of poor white racist trash and middlebrow middle-class drones blind to their own inherent racism.

Race is a convenient class bludgeon, in other words.  And you&#039;re doing it quite well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If he were the only black American, a tree would fall in the forest and no one would care.</p>
<p>Since he’s not, of course it matters.&#8221;</p>
<p>But not to the people voting against him because he&#8217;s a plutocrat who&#8217;s in the process of deeply fucking them over.  Again, all you&#8217;re doing is isolating out his race and then pointing at it and going &#8220;The only meaningful difference *I* can see is his race. Therefore it must mean something meaningful.&#8221;</p>
<p>At the end of the day, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  A plutocrat in any color is going to fuck over the poor and middle class.  And race analysis is cheap, easy and comes with the convenient class-based scapegoats of poor white racist trash and middlebrow middle-class drones blind to their own inherent racism.</p>
<p>Race is a convenient class bludgeon, in other words.  And you&#8217;re doing it quite well.</p>
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