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	<title>Comments on: Groundhog Day at M.I.T., and everywhere</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 17:15:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805704</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805704</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s never too late, Paul!  Good to hear from you.  (And Lexia--I know!  I&#039;m sure you can hardly believe it.)

I hear this mostly w/r/t nonwhite scholars these days.  (If colleagues or peers think that white women are all lucky duckies, no one shares that opinion any more with *me*, at least.)  Most white people don&#039;t think that standards have been lowered, but they persist in the belief that nonwhite scholars have all kinds of options that they&#039;ll never have.

Of course, many white scholars don&#039;t think about what it might cost nonwhite scholars who move to small towns and rural areas that are overwhelmingly white.  If they&#039;re single/unpartnered, dating can be a challenge, and if they have a partner and/or children, they have to think about their children&#039;s safety and well-being as very visible minorities in ways that white people don&#039;t have to.  As a Latino friend of mine from back in Winesburg, Ohio used to say:  &quot;I hope they don&#039;t take [the controversial, some said demeaning Indian stereotype] Cheif Redskin&#039;s face off of the football stadium.  That would be one less brown face in this town!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s never too late, Paul!  Good to hear from you.  (And Lexia&#8211;I know!  I&#8217;m sure you can hardly believe it.)</p>
<p>I hear this mostly w/r/t nonwhite scholars these days.  (If colleagues or peers think that white women are all lucky duckies, no one shares that opinion any more with *me*, at least.)  Most white people don&#8217;t think that standards have been lowered, but they persist in the belief that nonwhite scholars have all kinds of options that they&#8217;ll never have.</p>
<p>Of course, many white scholars don&#8217;t think about what it might cost nonwhite scholars who move to small towns and rural areas that are overwhelmingly white.  If they&#8217;re single/unpartnered, dating can be a challenge, and if they have a partner and/or children, they have to think about their children&#8217;s safety and well-being as very visible minorities in ways that white people don&#8217;t have to.  As a Latino friend of mine from back in Winesburg, Ohio used to say:  &#8220;I hope they don&#8217;t take [the controversial, some said demeaning Indian stereotype] Cheif Redskin&#8217;s face off of the football stadium.  That would be one less brown face in this town!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805700</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805700</guid>
		<description>Too late to join the conversation as usual, but I would just add that based on my own experience, it doesn&#039;t surprise me in the least that many male students are convinced that many women students and teachers have been &quot;let in&quot; because of affirmative action. I used to believe this myself - it was widely believed among male friends and family members as well.  The belief doesn&#039;t seem to have declined much in the last 20 years.  From what I can tell, belief that affirmative action is tilting the odds against you is very common among white men, and not just ultra-conservatives.  It&#039;s a good example of perception overcoming reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too late to join the conversation as usual, but I would just add that based on my own experience, it doesn&#8217;t surprise me in the least that many male students are convinced that many women students and teachers have been &#8220;let in&#8221; because of affirmative action. I used to believe this myself &#8211; it was widely believed among male friends and family members as well.  The belief doesn&#8217;t seem to have declined much in the last 20 years.  From what I can tell, belief that affirmative action is tilting the odds against you is very common among white men, and not just ultra-conservatives.  It&#8217;s a good example of perception overcoming reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Lexia</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805696</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805696</guid>
		<description>Good lord!  Is the NYT at it -again-?

I remember when the original MIT study was published, the good writers at the NYT were stunned that any employer would admit to sex discrimination, no matter how strong the evidence.  That article then finished with what amounted to general instructions on how any employer could easily avoid liability on the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good lord!  Is the NYT at it -again-?</p>
<p>I remember when the original MIT study was published, the good writers at the NYT were stunned that any employer would admit to sex discrimination, no matter how strong the evidence.  That article then finished with what amounted to general instructions on how any employer could easily avoid liability on the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Janice</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805361</link>
		<dc:creator>Janice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805361</guid>
		<description>The catch-22 of gender: if there aren&#039;t as many women as men, it&#039;s because women aren&#039;t as good. If there are more women than men, it&#039;s too easy or undesirable.

I&#039;m damned tired of hearing that woman are, by definition, less accomplished or deserving than any man. Those boys, bitching with the chips on their shoulder, about how undergraduate women have to justify their place in the classroom? They illustrate how little progress we&#039;ve made in western society over the last hundred years in our essential attitudes toward gender equality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The catch-22 of gender: if there aren&#8217;t as many women as men, it&#8217;s because women aren&#8217;t as good. If there are more women than men, it&#8217;s too easy or undesirable.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m damned tired of hearing that woman are, by definition, less accomplished or deserving than any man. Those boys, bitching with the chips on their shoulder, about how undergraduate women have to justify their place in the classroom? They illustrate how little progress we&#8217;ve made in western society over the last hundred years in our essential attitudes toward gender equality.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805355</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805355</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Informally, I’ve already heard many graduate students (both male and female) in their mid-twenties start to worry about this: you can be single, childless, and yet still have many responsibilities for frail family members.&lt;/i&gt;

One thing that faculty at Ph.D.-granting institutions could do to (begin to) address this issue is to model for their graduate students-- from day 1 of classes-- how to speak professionally about one&#039;s responsibilities to frail family members. We may occasionally snark about undergrads using their dying relatives as excuses for late assignments, but that snark doesn&#039;t prepare grad students well for how (and when) to professionally take time off for equivalent situations. 

(More concretely: If you&#039;re unlikely to get anything done anyway because of worrying about and/or caring for your terminally ill family member, when should you cancel class/find a substitute for the rest of the semester/tell your advisor/cancel that conference paper? How do you phrase the email?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Informally, I’ve already heard many graduate students (both male and female) in their mid-twenties start to worry about this: you can be single, childless, and yet still have many responsibilities for frail family members.</i></p>
<p>One thing that faculty at Ph.D.-granting institutions could do to (begin to) address this issue is to model for their graduate students&#8211; from day 1 of classes&#8211; how to speak professionally about one&#8217;s responsibilities to frail family members. We may occasionally snark about undergrads using their dying relatives as excuses for late assignments, but that snark doesn&#8217;t prepare grad students well for how (and when) to professionally take time off for equivalent situations. </p>
<p>(More concretely: If you&#8217;re unlikely to get anything done anyway because of worrying about and/or caring for your terminally ill family member, when should you cancel class/find a substitute for the rest of the semester/tell your advisor/cancel that conference paper? How do you phrase the email?)</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805346</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805346</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think MIT is 20 years behind other american universities.  What that article describes sounds very typical for many science departments, even at universities with female leadership in the upper administration.

Later today, I have to schedule a work-life-balance discussion for my school and I just dread it.  Students show up expecting the speaker to dole out the magical secret to making it all wonderful and easy.  And instead the speaker describes how they managed - hard work, little sleep, trying to make the best of what is almost always a totally sucky unfair situation.  Students then leave a little more disillusioned.  Yuck, yuck, yuck and yuck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think MIT is 20 years behind other american universities.  What that article describes sounds very typical for many science departments, even at universities with female leadership in the upper administration.</p>
<p>Later today, I have to schedule a work-life-balance discussion for my school and I just dread it.  Students show up expecting the speaker to dole out the magical secret to making it all wonderful and easy.  And instead the speaker describes how they managed &#8211; hard work, little sleep, trying to make the best of what is almost always a totally sucky unfair situation.  Students then leave a little more disillusioned.  Yuck, yuck, yuck and yuck.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel S. Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805341</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel S. Goldberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805341</guid>
		<description>Just to elaborate on Historiann&#039;s 9:17 pm comment (regarding work-health), there is extremely high quality social epidemiologic evidence linking occupation and health in pretty profound ways, beyond mere exposure to hazardous conditions.  

In some of the more civilized societies on the planet, the benefits afforded people and (yes) families are staggering by American standards, which come off as entirely Hobbesian in comparison.  Generous leave time, wholly-funded day care for years, etc. (Yes, pro-natalist for sure, but in part this is a factor of the robust evidence showing that early development and intervention is absolutely critical for health over the lifespan, so in some sense there is justification in public health policy for &quot;Won&#039;t Somebody Please Think of the Children&quot;).

The upshot is that the occupational climate of the U.S., including that of universities is deleterious to our health, and of course, the health consequences of these social pathologies are distributed highly unequally across the social gradient, disproportionately affecting the already marginalized and disadvantaged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to elaborate on Historiann&#8217;s 9:17 pm comment (regarding work-health), there is extremely high quality social epidemiologic evidence linking occupation and health in pretty profound ways, beyond mere exposure to hazardous conditions.  </p>
<p>In some of the more civilized societies on the planet, the benefits afforded people and (yes) families are staggering by American standards, which come off as entirely Hobbesian in comparison.  Generous leave time, wholly-funded day care for years, etc. (Yes, pro-natalist for sure, but in part this is a factor of the robust evidence showing that early development and intervention is absolutely critical for health over the lifespan, so in some sense there is justification in public health policy for &#8220;Won&#8217;t Somebody Please Think of the Children&#8221;).</p>
<p>The upshot is that the occupational climate of the U.S., including that of universities is deleterious to our health, and of course, the health consequences of these social pathologies are distributed highly unequally across the social gradient, disproportionately affecting the already marginalized and disadvantaged.</p>
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		<title>By: Shelley</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805307</link>
		<dc:creator>Shelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805307</guid>
		<description>Maybe because my writing is set in the last Great Depression, I have a fear that now that the job market is essentially and perhaps permanently more or less non-existent (lots of firing, minimal hiring)--that the corporations will rejoice because all the quality-of-life issues must now be shoved aside in service of I Need A Job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe because my writing is set in the last Great Depression, I have a fear that now that the job market is essentially and perhaps permanently more or less non-existent (lots of firing, minimal hiring)&#8211;that the corporations will rejoice because all the quality-of-life issues must now be shoved aside in service of I Need A Job.</p>
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		<title>By: wini</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805290</link>
		<dc:creator>wini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2011 14:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805290</guid>
		<description>Dropping in quickly to say that when I interviewed at a school with affirmative action for (white) men they told me that their female students are overall much smarter than their male ones. And, one female faculty member ranted about the policy, she left that year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dropping in quickly to say that when I interviewed at a school with affirmative action for (white) men they told me that their female students are overall much smarter than their male ones. And, one female faculty member ranted about the policy, she left that year.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/03/21/groundhog-day-at-m-i-t-and-everywhere/comment-page-1/#comment-805107</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2011 04:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=14524#comment-805107</guid>
		<description>FMLA is pretty weak tea compared to what families get in the Great White North.  And yet, their cities haven&#039;t come to riot and ruin, and their families aren&#039;t any worse off than ours.  &lt;i&gt;How strange.&lt;/i&gt;

The U.S. missed the boat on basic social welfare programs like socialized medicine and guaranteed paid parental leave, back when medical care was cheaper and more primitive than it is now.  Now these are just accepted parts of the European and Canadian welfare states.  Now I think it&#039;s too late for anything like this to happen in the U.S.  If it ever could have happened, that is (and I&#039;m doubtful about that.)  

Americans are a hard and mean people.  They prefer to praise the already rich and powerful and kick the poor and obscure.  &quot;It&#039;s your misfortune, and none of my own,&quot; we like to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FMLA is pretty weak tea compared to what families get in the Great White North.  And yet, their cities haven&#8217;t come to riot and ruin, and their families aren&#8217;t any worse off than ours.  <i>How strange.</i></p>
<p>The U.S. missed the boat on basic social welfare programs like socialized medicine and guaranteed paid parental leave, back when medical care was cheaper and more primitive than it is now.  Now these are just accepted parts of the European and Canadian welfare states.  Now I think it&#8217;s too late for anything like this to happen in the U.S.  If it ever could have happened, that is (and I&#8217;m doubtful about that.)  </p>
<p>Americans are a hard and mean people.  They prefer to praise the already rich and powerful and kick the poor and obscure.  &#8220;It&#8217;s your misfortune, and none of my own,&#8221; we like to believe.</p>
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