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	<title>Comments on: Standards, stress, and sneetches:  how can poor kids win?</title>
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	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: queen bee ball python</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-1341439</link>
		<dc:creator>queen bee ball python</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-1341439</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like in order to be able for you to help appreciate the actual efforts you have made written this short article. I hope the same best product within you later on as well. Actually your imaginative composing expertise provides motivated me personally to start my own BlogEngine blog currently. Really the blogging is distributing its agency rapidly. Your own article is a great example of this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like in order to be able for you to help appreciate the actual efforts you have made written this short article. I hope the same best product within you later on as well. Actually your imaginative composing expertise provides motivated me personally to start my own BlogEngine blog currently. Really the blogging is distributing its agency rapidly. Your own article is a great example of this.</p>
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		<title>By: myiq2xu</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-767687</link>
		<dc:creator>myiq2xu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-767687</guid>
		<description>What is sad that some of these kids get pressured into med school or law school, graduate, start careers and somewhere around their thirties realize they hate what they&#039;re doing but can&#039;t afford to quit because they have high-income lifestyles.

I can&#039;t imagine having my entire childhood scripted and planned like many of the kids today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is sad that some of these kids get pressured into med school or law school, graduate, start careers and somewhere around their thirties realize they hate what they&#8217;re doing but can&#8217;t afford to quit because they have high-income lifestyles.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t imagine having my entire childhood scripted and planned like many of the kids today.</p>
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		<title>By: Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-766933</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 05:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-766933</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a child of baby boomers --- Gen Y, millennial, whatever you guys decide to call the large cohort following Gen X. I&#039;m also autistic, which meant I both fit and didn&#039;t fit the &quot;high-achieving&quot; mold you, Western Dave, and Cordelia V mention.

Early in K-12, I was in special ed classes as well as gifted classes, and later (starting around middle school) I was not recognized as gifted/advanced at all, really. So I took lots of mainstream, non-honors, non-AP classes in middle school and early high school that weren&#039;t the least bit interesting or challenging. By my senior year, though, I was taking AP calculus, AP history and multiple science classes --- I had found the stuff that both challenged and interested me, despite never being on the &quot;achiever&quot; track, really, because of my disability and my schools&#039; poor understanding of how to handle students with that disability.

So I met some of Cordelia&#039;s criteria but not all --- yes to the demanding classes, at least by the latter half of high school, no to the high GPA (we had weighted averages, with AP classes worth 5.0 --- so if you&#039;re not on an all-AP track starting freshman year, you&#039;re going to be ranked 50 or below. You just are. And that was OK, because I did not give a crap about my class rank). I only applied to one college, the nonselective state school closest to my parents&#039; house. (Again, with the disability --- we weren&#039;t sure how far away from home I should be, since I can&#039;t drive and we had no idea how much independence I could handle).

My normal brother and sister worked a lot harder than I did in high school --- I remember having most of my time after school free. I did one extracurricular activity --- something I liked, which had practically zero College Application Utility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a child of baby boomers &#8212; Gen Y, millennial, whatever you guys decide to call the large cohort following Gen X. I&#8217;m also autistic, which meant I both fit and didn&#8217;t fit the &#8220;high-achieving&#8221; mold you, Western Dave, and Cordelia V mention.</p>
<p>Early in K-12, I was in special ed classes as well as gifted classes, and later (starting around middle school) I was not recognized as gifted/advanced at all, really. So I took lots of mainstream, non-honors, non-AP classes in middle school and early high school that weren&#8217;t the least bit interesting or challenging. By my senior year, though, I was taking AP calculus, AP history and multiple science classes &#8212; I had found the stuff that both challenged and interested me, despite never being on the &#8220;achiever&#8221; track, really, because of my disability and my schools&#8217; poor understanding of how to handle students with that disability.</p>
<p>So I met some of Cordelia&#8217;s criteria but not all &#8212; yes to the demanding classes, at least by the latter half of high school, no to the high GPA (we had weighted averages, with AP classes worth 5.0 &#8212; so if you&#8217;re not on an all-AP track starting freshman year, you&#8217;re going to be ranked 50 or below. You just are. And that was OK, because I did not give a crap about my class rank). I only applied to one college, the nonselective state school closest to my parents&#8217; house. (Again, with the disability &#8212; we weren&#8217;t sure how far away from home I should be, since I can&#8217;t drive and we had no idea how much independence I could handle).</p>
<p>My normal brother and sister worked a lot harder than I did in high school &#8212; I remember having most of my time after school free. I did one extracurricular activity &#8212; something I liked, which had practically zero College Application Utility.</p>
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		<title>By: FrauTech</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-766928</link>
		<dc:creator>FrauTech</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 05:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-766928</guid>
		<description>I grew up in the early part of this culture (back when we thought going to college meant a good, solid and well paying job) and I think maybe getting rid of valedictorian/saludatorians would be a good thing. My elder sister would have been valedictorian but she took three years of marching band which was a non-honors class, so her A from that was actually dragging down the A&#039;s from her honors and AP classes. I also think you have so much problems with big fish in small ponds or big fish in big ponds. I agree though that it&#039;s all about where you go and the tendency of that economic class to push that entire group into college and so the &quot;best&quot; high schools keep their status because upper middle class people keep sending their kids there.

Someone else really hit the nail on the head that one unintended consequence of all these hours of homework is that students are rewarded based on effort. Then when they go to college or certain places in the &quot;real world&quot; they discover that effort is not directly rewarded. That it&#039;s more important you study, learn and understand and that someone who can do that in 20 minutes might get a better grade than someone who spends hours studying. Though, I hear this from GenXers and Baby Booomers as well, the &quot;but I worked so hard on that.&quot; Yes, but if it&#039;s wrong, you can&#039;t get credit/promoted. Maybe our schools only reflect our culture in many ways, maybe there&#039;s much we&#039;d need to change first before we could really effect changes in our public schools</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up in the early part of this culture (back when we thought going to college meant a good, solid and well paying job) and I think maybe getting rid of valedictorian/saludatorians would be a good thing. My elder sister would have been valedictorian but she took three years of marching band which was a non-honors class, so her A from that was actually dragging down the A&#8217;s from her honors and AP classes. I also think you have so much problems with big fish in small ponds or big fish in big ponds. I agree though that it&#8217;s all about where you go and the tendency of that economic class to push that entire group into college and so the &#8220;best&#8221; high schools keep their status because upper middle class people keep sending their kids there.</p>
<p>Someone else really hit the nail on the head that one unintended consequence of all these hours of homework is that students are rewarded based on effort. Then when they go to college or certain places in the &#8220;real world&#8221; they discover that effort is not directly rewarded. That it&#8217;s more important you study, learn and understand and that someone who can do that in 20 minutes might get a better grade than someone who spends hours studying. Though, I hear this from GenXers and Baby Booomers as well, the &#8220;but I worked so hard on that.&#8221; Yes, but if it&#8217;s wrong, you can&#8217;t get credit/promoted. Maybe our schools only reflect our culture in many ways, maybe there&#8217;s much we&#8217;d need to change first before we could really effect changes in our public schools</p>
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		<title>By: Fratguy</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-766896</link>
		<dc:creator>Fratguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 03:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-766896</guid>
		<description>I thought the point of studying AP Calculus was to learn calculus, not to get into a &quot;good&quot; college.  Seems the tail is wagging the dog here, or am I just being naive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the point of studying AP Calculus was to learn calculus, not to get into a &#8220;good&#8221; college.  Seems the tail is wagging the dog here, or am I just being naive?</p>
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		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-766833</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 01:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-766833</guid>
		<description>p.s.  I meant to say &quot;especially when it snowed.&quot;  Take a week off and talk about getting de-skilled!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s.  I meant to say &#8220;especially when it snowed.&#8221;  Take a week off and talk about getting de-skilled!</p>
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		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-766831</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 01:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-766831</guid>
		<description>That was me in K-6.  If the teacher was firing on the right cylinders, collaborate.  If a moron, that&#039;s why they had windows in the classrooms.  Especially when it showed.  7-9 was a disaster.  In 9-12, we did write a lot, every week, and I&#039;ve never been sorry about that.  I later wrote my way out of more problematic, and even hopeless, corners than I could have imagined, right into and through graduate school.  So I guess the conclusion is, whatever works works.  Not every parent can move their kid around to get the right mix-and-match.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was me in K-6.  If the teacher was firing on the right cylinders, collaborate.  If a moron, that&#8217;s why they had windows in the classrooms.  Especially when it showed.  7-9 was a disaster.  In 9-12, we did write a lot, every week, and I&#8217;ve never been sorry about that.  I later wrote my way out of more problematic, and even hopeless, corners than I could have imagined, right into and through graduate school.  So I guess the conclusion is, whatever works works.  Not every parent can move their kid around to get the right mix-and-match.</p>
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		<title>By: Western Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-766815</link>
		<dc:creator>Western Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 00:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-766815</guid>
		<description>My frustration has been that rigor has been measured by amount of work rather than quality of work.  As koshem says, a moron teacher can pile on work but not have it be meaningful.  One of the biggest compliments I ever got from a student was the one who said I had the most challenging class with the least amount of work.  Sadly, I&#039;ve had to give more assignments (in part to help weaker students who need more feedback on a more regular basis).  So I&#039;m sympathetic to the idea that weaker students need more regular work and more feedback.  At the same time, it doesn&#039;t have to be write a paper a week.  It can be write a thesis statement for homework and we&#039;ll workshop them tomorrow.  

But the move to de-skill teachers isn&#039;t going to help on the meaningful work front.  (Starts threadjack and runs.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My frustration has been that rigor has been measured by amount of work rather than quality of work.  As koshem says, a moron teacher can pile on work but not have it be meaningful.  One of the biggest compliments I ever got from a student was the one who said I had the most challenging class with the least amount of work.  Sadly, I&#8217;ve had to give more assignments (in part to help weaker students who need more feedback on a more regular basis).  So I&#8217;m sympathetic to the idea that weaker students need more regular work and more feedback.  At the same time, it doesn&#8217;t have to be write a paper a week.  It can be write a thesis statement for homework and we&#8217;ll workshop them tomorrow.  </p>
<p>But the move to de-skill teachers isn&#8217;t going to help on the meaningful work front.  (Starts threadjack and runs.)</p>
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		<title>By: koshem Bos</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-766803</link>
		<dc:creator>koshem Bos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 00:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-766803</guid>
		<description>The whole complex is just that. The K-12 system requires more homework as you approach 12. Sorry, but 5 hours of homework seems to me to more punitive than necessary. Since I am a baby boomer, I pushed my oldest kid like crazy; it was one of the worst mistakes I made in my life. But through it I learned that K-12 can be easily be K-8 without losing much. My oldest got to post graduate work years before he could legally buy bear. I left the other two kids alone.

My youngest attitude was very clear: if the teacher makes sense and poses challenges, my son collaborated. However, if the teacher was a &quot;moron&quot; my son did nothing in the class. Like his &quot;serious&quot; brothers he also went to top college. His a political director of a major union in a very large city since he was 24. Work on students brains and not their rear end endurance.

I am all for cutting down on homework (in classes I teach assignment are designed to engage the brain not time), lower competition, removing waste of time and not encourage enrollment in top colleges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole complex is just that. The K-12 system requires more homework as you approach 12. Sorry, but 5 hours of homework seems to me to more punitive than necessary. Since I am a baby boomer, I pushed my oldest kid like crazy; it was one of the worst mistakes I made in my life. But through it I learned that K-12 can be easily be K-8 without losing much. My oldest got to post graduate work years before he could legally buy bear. I left the other two kids alone.</p>
<p>My youngest attitude was very clear: if the teacher makes sense and poses challenges, my son collaborated. However, if the teacher was a &#8220;moron&#8221; my son did nothing in the class. Like his &#8220;serious&#8221; brothers he also went to top college. His a political director of a major union in a very large city since he was 24. Work on students brains and not their rear end endurance.</p>
<p>I am all for cutting down on homework (in classes I teach assignment are designed to engage the brain not time), lower competition, removing waste of time and not encourage enrollment in top colleges.</p>
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		<title>By: rustonite</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2011/01/03/standards-stress-and-sneetches-how-can-poor-kids-win/comment-page-1/#comment-766634</link>
		<dc:creator>rustonite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 21:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=13746#comment-766634</guid>
		<description>Cordelia&#039;s righter than she realizes. It isn&#039;t just top-50 schools that have seen admissions standards inflate. My alma mater (which this year is in a five-way tie for #99 in the admittedly flawed US News rankings) has gotten to the point where, if I were applying now, I wouldn&#039;t get in- and it&#039;s only been ten years. For that matter, my father was admitted to an Ivy in 1977 with grades and extracurriculars similar to what mine were in 2000. I&#039;d bet that if you dug up the admissions standards for Bah Ram U from 2000, they&#039;d be a good standard deviation lower than they are now.

I think it&#039;s an arms race dynamic, the same one that&#039;s driving increased tenure standards, upgrades in athletic programs, palatial student unions, etc. Even the trend of the past decade to rename Colleges as Universities (like Massachusetts just did with its six &quot;state universities&quot;). There&#039;s absolute goal, everyone is just trying to get ahead of whoever&#039;s in front of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cordelia&#8217;s righter than she realizes. It isn&#8217;t just top-50 schools that have seen admissions standards inflate. My alma mater (which this year is in a five-way tie for #99 in the admittedly flawed US News rankings) has gotten to the point where, if I were applying now, I wouldn&#8217;t get in- and it&#8217;s only been ten years. For that matter, my father was admitted to an Ivy in 1977 with grades and extracurriculars similar to what mine were in 2000. I&#8217;d bet that if you dug up the admissions standards for Bah Ram U from 2000, they&#8217;d be a good standard deviation lower than they are now.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s an arms race dynamic, the same one that&#8217;s driving increased tenure standards, upgrades in athletic programs, palatial student unions, etc. Even the trend of the past decade to rename Colleges as Universities (like Massachusetts just did with its six &#8220;state universities&#8221;). There&#8217;s absolute goal, everyone is just trying to get ahead of whoever&#8217;s in front of them.</p>
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