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	<title>Comments on: Indefensible</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Sunday Radical Roundup: Timeless Questions Edition - Tenured Radical - The Chronicle of Higher Education</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-840709</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunday Radical Roundup: Timeless Questions Edition - Tenured Radical - The Chronicle of Higher Education</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] and Math, for you girlfriends and girly-men cowering in the liberal arts and life sciences. Go to Historiann to read about hazing rituals at dissertation defenses in the sciences, and everything else the AAUW [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and Math, for you girlfriends and girly-men cowering in the liberal arts and life sciences. Go to Historiann to read about hazing rituals at dissertation defenses in the sciences, and everything else the AAUW [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ladysquires</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-623168</link>
		<dc:creator>ladysquires</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 May 2010 18:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-623168</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m getting a Ph.D. in English in what I would consider to be a very collegial department, but there&#039;s always &quot;that guy.&quot;  &quot;That guy&quot;--I shit you not--FELL ASLEEP during my second year Oral Exam.  And what&#039;s worse, I think there was a deliberateness to it, an expression of his utter disinterest in my answers to the questions the other professors in the room were asking. It was his way of saying, &quot;Well, the important part of this exam is over, so I might as well put my head on my hands and get me some shuteye.&quot;  We all had the option of going to the exam chair in the weeks after for more detailed feedback, but I never did.  

Just to be clear though, I actually love my graduate program.  I love my dissertation, and I love my teaching job.  I never expected grad school to be anything other than really, really hard, and while I&#039;ve been blindsided in a few cases, I can honestly say it&#039;s been a character-building experience (cue Mr. Rogers theme song).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m getting a Ph.D. in English in what I would consider to be a very collegial department, but there&#8217;s always &#8220;that guy.&#8221;  &#8220;That guy&#8221;&#8211;I shit you not&#8211;FELL ASLEEP during my second year Oral Exam.  And what&#8217;s worse, I think there was a deliberateness to it, an expression of his utter disinterest in my answers to the questions the other professors in the room were asking. It was his way of saying, &#8220;Well, the important part of this exam is over, so I might as well put my head on my hands and get me some shuteye.&#8221;  We all had the option of going to the exam chair in the weeks after for more detailed feedback, but I never did.  </p>
<p>Just to be clear though, I actually love my graduate program.  I love my dissertation, and I love my teaching job.  I never expected grad school to be anything other than really, really hard, and while I&#8217;ve been blindsided in a few cases, I can honestly say it&#8217;s been a character-building experience (cue Mr. Rogers theme song).</p>
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		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-620234</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 May 2010 03:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-620234</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t forget the measuring lady, John S.  It would have taken a truckfull of tough movers to keep her from her appointed rounds.  My scariest moment in academia came when she whipped out her ruler and said &quot;you&#039;ve been working for years. Just relax, and let me take over now.&quot;  That&#039;s when you know you&#039;re a sinner and put yourself in the graces of Clio!  I heard she took a buyout package, went emeritus, and is working part time in character-assurance at Twitter these days!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t forget the measuring lady, John S.  It would have taken a truckfull of tough movers to keep her from her appointed rounds.  My scariest moment in academia came when she whipped out her ruler and said &#8220;you&#8217;ve been working for years. Just relax, and let me take over now.&#8221;  That&#8217;s when you know you&#8217;re a sinner and put yourself in the graces of Clio!  I heard she took a buyout package, went emeritus, and is working part time in character-assurance at Twitter these days!</p>
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		<title>By: John S.</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-620165</link>
		<dc:creator>John S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 May 2010 00:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-620165</guid>
		<description>Well, my committee had exactly the right take on the defense given the circumstances. They would have found what Rad and Z report to be unconscionable. In my case, I had a job and the moving van was on its way to get my stuff. (I left town 36 hours after dropping the diss off at Grad Studies.) They were unwilling to jeopardize my salary (I would have still been employed, but gotten lower pay) to jerk me around at the last minute. So yes--the right way to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my committee had exactly the right take on the defense given the circumstances. They would have found what Rad and Z report to be unconscionable. In my case, I had a job and the moving van was on its way to get my stuff. (I left town 36 hours after dropping the diss off at Grad Studies.) They were unwilling to jeopardize my salary (I would have still been employed, but gotten lower pay) to jerk me around at the last minute. So yes&#8211;the right way to go.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellie</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-620131</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 23:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-620131</guid>
		<description>It seems like there are at least two issues here: the utility of the defense as an institution (the intellectual rewards relative to its in/convenience) and how to protect candidates from potential abuse/sabotage/bad behavior by committee members. In this regard, it sounds like many aspects of graduate education that are discussed here and elsewhere: it can be enjoyable and rewarding, given a helpful and respectful advisor/committee, or it can be horrible, given an unhelpful, disrespectful or cruel committee; it can be no problem under &quot;normative&quot; conditions (in this case, i.e.,candidate is local and defense happens during term time), or it can be a huge pain or worse, in a non-normative situation (candidate is based elsewhere and has to undertake expensive travel, defense in summer, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems like there are at least two issues here: the utility of the defense as an institution (the intellectual rewards relative to its in/convenience) and how to protect candidates from potential abuse/sabotage/bad behavior by committee members. In this regard, it sounds like many aspects of graduate education that are discussed here and elsewhere: it can be enjoyable and rewarding, given a helpful and respectful advisor/committee, or it can be horrible, given an unhelpful, disrespectful or cruel committee; it can be no problem under &#8220;normative&#8221; conditions (in this case, i.e.,candidate is local and defense happens during term time), or it can be a huge pain or worse, in a non-normative situation (candidate is based elsewhere and has to undertake expensive travel, defense in summer, etc.).</p>
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		<title>By: Feminist Avatar</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-620071</link>
		<dc:creator>Feminist Avatar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 20:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-620071</guid>
		<description>In the UK, the PhD in the humanities/ social sciences works slightly differently from the US in that you have usually two, sometimes one, advisor, who guides you through the process and eventually agree that your work is of a standard to submit (you can insist on submitting without permission, but it is at your peril). It is then sent to two examiners- one an external examiner from another institution who is a leading expert in your field (selected by your advisors, sometimes in collaboration with you, ideally they pick people who are nice- sometimes they don&#039;t! You also want a bigwig as they will be your referee for jobs etc) and the other is an internal examiner, who is another member of your department, who may not have direct expertise in your area, but is usually in a related subject area.

The examiners are sent copies of the phd and have so much time to read it. They then meet before the viva and decide the outcome- pass with no corrections; pass with minor corrections; pass with major corrections and fail. The external examiner is really the power here- in that they have the final say. Then you have a viva, which consists of your two examiners and a chair, who is usually Head of Dept (unless s/he is your advisor) and whose role is to keep things on track and to take notes. You can invite your advisors to sit in on the defence, but they aren&#039;t allowed to say anything unless invited by the chair. Unless the examiners are really on the fence about passing you, they often- but not always- tell you that you have passed at the beginning of the viva. You spend the next couple of hours dicussing any corrections, potential areas for future research and publication- discussion at this point can affect what corrections you are asked to make (so if you defend something really well, you might not be asked to change it- although you may well be asked to justify it at greater length in the thesis).

You are then sent out while they decide on what corrections they will formally ask you to make (if any). You then go back in and are told the exact outcome (minor corrections/ major etc) and given a deadline for any changes and who you have to submit them to. If it&#039;s minor, usually they just go to the internal; major changes go back to the external. The chair writes up the formal corrections and you get a typed report a few days later to keep you right.

I think the process of being examined by someone who is usually a stranger means that it is harder to make criticisms about you as a person- and restricts comments to the research. Plus a good advisor should try not to pick an asshole- but then we don&#039;t all have good advisors and sometimes the expert in the field is not known to your advisor. However, I heartily recommend writing your PhD from a feminist perspective with liberal use of the word patriarchy- because at least then your examiner should share your political outlook- which I imagine mitigates against any misogynist comments!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the UK, the PhD in the humanities/ social sciences works slightly differently from the US in that you have usually two, sometimes one, advisor, who guides you through the process and eventually agree that your work is of a standard to submit (you can insist on submitting without permission, but it is at your peril). It is then sent to two examiners- one an external examiner from another institution who is a leading expert in your field (selected by your advisors, sometimes in collaboration with you, ideally they pick people who are nice- sometimes they don&#8217;t! You also want a bigwig as they will be your referee for jobs etc) and the other is an internal examiner, who is another member of your department, who may not have direct expertise in your area, but is usually in a related subject area.</p>
<p>The examiners are sent copies of the phd and have so much time to read it. They then meet before the viva and decide the outcome- pass with no corrections; pass with minor corrections; pass with major corrections and fail. The external examiner is really the power here- in that they have the final say. Then you have a viva, which consists of your two examiners and a chair, who is usually Head of Dept (unless s/he is your advisor) and whose role is to keep things on track and to take notes. You can invite your advisors to sit in on the defence, but they aren&#8217;t allowed to say anything unless invited by the chair. Unless the examiners are really on the fence about passing you, they often- but not always- tell you that you have passed at the beginning of the viva. You spend the next couple of hours dicussing any corrections, potential areas for future research and publication- discussion at this point can affect what corrections you are asked to make (so if you defend something really well, you might not be asked to change it- although you may well be asked to justify it at greater length in the thesis).</p>
<p>You are then sent out while they decide on what corrections they will formally ask you to make (if any). You then go back in and are told the exact outcome (minor corrections/ major etc) and given a deadline for any changes and who you have to submit them to. If it&#8217;s minor, usually they just go to the internal; major changes go back to the external. The chair writes up the formal corrections and you get a typed report a few days later to keep you right.</p>
<p>I think the process of being examined by someone who is usually a stranger means that it is harder to make criticisms about you as a person- and restricts comments to the research. Plus a good advisor should try not to pick an asshole- but then we don&#8217;t all have good advisors and sometimes the expert in the field is not known to your advisor. However, I heartily recommend writing your PhD from a feminist perspective with liberal use of the word patriarchy- because at least then your examiner should share your political outlook- which I imagine mitigates against any misogynist comments!</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-619866</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 14:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-619866</guid>
		<description>Janice, your uni&#039;s Defense Chair system sounds productive and helpful to everyone.  It also would seem to force advisors to present students who really are ready for their exams/defenses.  As others have commented above, it&#039;s professional malpractice to permit a student to go into a defense if ze&#039;s really not ready.

The worst case scenarios are the ones Rad and Z report--potentially withholding a degree from someone who&#039;s secured a job and is ready to rock&#039;n&#039;roll.  But even for those who don&#039;t have a job waiting for them, I can&#039;t imagine the devastation of a hostile and/or unsuccessful defense.

(And, to CPP:  No, not everyone in this thread went to BFU, but a number of my regular commenters are people who did!  What can I say:  it was a top American history program.)

I had no idea that you (John S.) had a defense--since I finished just a few years before you, I guess that&#039;s another bullet I dodged.  I have to say, knowing your committee members, that your defense sounds like about what I would have predicted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Janice, your uni&#8217;s Defense Chair system sounds productive and helpful to everyone.  It also would seem to force advisors to present students who really are ready for their exams/defenses.  As others have commented above, it&#8217;s professional malpractice to permit a student to go into a defense if ze&#8217;s really not ready.</p>
<p>The worst case scenarios are the ones Rad and Z report&#8211;potentially withholding a degree from someone who&#8217;s secured a job and is ready to rock&#8217;n'roll.  But even for those who don&#8217;t have a job waiting for them, I can&#8217;t imagine the devastation of a hostile and/or unsuccessful defense.</p>
<p>(And, to CPP:  No, not everyone in this thread went to BFU, but a number of my regular commenters are people who did!  What can I say:  it was a top American history program.)</p>
<p>I had no idea that you (John S.) had a defense&#8211;since I finished just a few years before you, I guess that&#8217;s another bullet I dodged.  I have to say, knowing your committee members, that your defense sounds like about what I would have predicted.</p>
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		<title>By: Janice</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-619578</link>
		<dc:creator>Janice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 01:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-619578</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve spent a lot of time in the trenches of defenses. My dad&#039;s engineering department NEVER did anything so crazy as the rituals mentioned above nor did my own graduate institution where my defense as a historian was all that was proper (my committee included a member of the Italian Studies department as the outside rep. and she actually gave me some very useful material for the final revisions as I had written about Englishmen who were studying at Padua).

My experience with defenses at Regional Comprehensive has all been positive whether I&#039;m a supervisor or committee member. We have a position that adds to the above -- there&#039;s a defense chair who represents graduate studies so I&#039;ve chaired defenses in Biology and Geology as well as in disciplines close to my own. The position of defense chair, who has to come from another program and cannot have any close relationship with student or supervisor, is meant to ensure that the defense follows proper procedure. As chair I have had to intervene on occasion, telling people that questions were inappropriate. Because the system is so well-entrenched and the chairs are organized through the dean of graduate studies, I doubt there&#039;s much chance at our university to put shenanigans into the defense.

That said, a lot of rituals that accrete around academe are invidious. I shudder, every year, to watch the march of the freshman engineers, going through their ritualized hazing that involves all sorts of stupidity. They call it &quot;orientation&quot; but when you have people painted purple and parading through the U doing &quot;the elephant walk&quot; as the public face of orientation, that&#039;s not acceptable. I would love to see that outlawed!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve spent a lot of time in the trenches of defenses. My dad&#8217;s engineering department NEVER did anything so crazy as the rituals mentioned above nor did my own graduate institution where my defense as a historian was all that was proper (my committee included a member of the Italian Studies department as the outside rep. and she actually gave me some very useful material for the final revisions as I had written about Englishmen who were studying at Padua).</p>
<p>My experience with defenses at Regional Comprehensive has all been positive whether I&#8217;m a supervisor or committee member. We have a position that adds to the above &#8212; there&#8217;s a defense chair who represents graduate studies so I&#8217;ve chaired defenses in Biology and Geology as well as in disciplines close to my own. The position of defense chair, who has to come from another program and cannot have any close relationship with student or supervisor, is meant to ensure that the defense follows proper procedure. As chair I have had to intervene on occasion, telling people that questions were inappropriate. Because the system is so well-entrenched and the chairs are organized through the dean of graduate studies, I doubt there&#8217;s much chance at our university to put shenanigans into the defense.</p>
<p>That said, a lot of rituals that accrete around academe are invidious. I shudder, every year, to watch the march of the freshman engineers, going through their ritualized hazing that involves all sorts of stupidity. They call it &#8220;orientation&#8221; but when you have people painted purple and parading through the U doing &#8220;the elephant walk&#8221; as the public face of orientation, that&#8217;s not acceptable. I would love to see that outlawed!</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-619570</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 01:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-619570</guid>
		<description>Rad Readr: I hired someone who said he would defend soon (i.e. before moving down) and did. Then he moved here, and then a committee member decided to change hir vote and ask for more revisions after all. And the dissertation director agreed to that. And due to what rules on that here are it messed us up severely for a year, especially the candidate. This was definitely the wimpiest dissertation director I have ever experienced. I think that feeling of no support had long lasting effects on the candidate&#039;s general confidence in the world, although ze is very discreet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rad Readr: I hired someone who said he would defend soon (i.e. before moving down) and did. Then he moved here, and then a committee member decided to change hir vote and ask for more revisions after all. And the dissertation director agreed to that. And due to what rules on that here are it messed us up severely for a year, especially the candidate. This was definitely the wimpiest dissertation director I have ever experienced. I think that feeling of no support had long lasting effects on the candidate&#8217;s general confidence in the world, although ze is very discreet.</p>
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		<title>By: Rad Readr</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/05/16/indefensible/comment-page-1/#comment-619560</link>
		<dc:creator>Rad Readr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 00:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=11078#comment-619560</guid>
		<description>Hello Stranger,
The defense is a waste of time and possibly a waste of money, as you point out. Having been through one myself on an August afternoon more than a decade ago, I can report the following: We had to reschedule because one of the committee members got in late on a flight from another country, and the outside person on the committee did not sign off on a defense without that member (even though he had said via phone that he would sign off anyway). Once we all got together, they were kind of cranky, and I was not able to smart off out of fear they woulnd&#039;t pass me. I had a job waiting, and without a PhD in hand I would not get the &quot;assistant professor&quot; tag and, worse, my new department would pay a lower salary. This was all a nuisance because dissertations in the Humanities should stand (or not) based on the written work submitted. 

Horror story: I know someone who flew cross country for a defense, but before it could take place the committee announced they wanted more revisions. Tough crowd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Stranger,<br />
The defense is a waste of time and possibly a waste of money, as you point out. Having been through one myself on an August afternoon more than a decade ago, I can report the following: We had to reschedule because one of the committee members got in late on a flight from another country, and the outside person on the committee did not sign off on a defense without that member (even though he had said via phone that he would sign off anyway). Once we all got together, they were kind of cranky, and I was not able to smart off out of fear they woulnd&#8217;t pass me. I had a job waiting, and without a PhD in hand I would not get the &#8220;assistant professor&#8221; tag and, worse, my new department would pay a lower salary. This was all a nuisance because dissertations in the Humanities should stand (or not) based on the written work submitted. </p>
<p>Horror story: I know someone who flew cross country for a defense, but before it could take place the committee announced they wanted more revisions. Tough crowd.</p>
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