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	<title>Comments on: Grade deflation + student frustration = Proffie&#8217;s early vacation!</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: What is the sound of one hand slapping my forhead? : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-607692</link>
		<dc:creator>What is the sound of one hand slapping my forhead? : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-607692</guid>
		<description>[...] candidates win tenure and promotion at Brown and wants to lower it?  (You&#8217;ll recall that Dean Carman is the guy who yanked a proffie out of her own course because of a high rate of studen....)  Would he be concerned that 30% of Brown Assistant Professors are &#8220;failing?&#8221;  Would [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] candidates win tenure and promotion at Brown and wants to lower it?  (You&#8217;ll recall that Dean Carman is the guy who yanked a proffie out of her own course because of a high rate of studen&#8230;.)  Would he be concerned that 30% of Brown Assistant Professors are &#8220;failing?&#8221;  Would [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cassandra</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-602075</link>
		<dc:creator>Cassandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-602075</guid>
		<description>Historiann said, &quot;Can we live with the burden of unleashing the unqualified masses on an unsuspecting public?&quot;

But, they&#039;re already out there.  They are MRI techs and nurses and doctors and schoolteachers and principals and professors and deans and used car salesmen and education profiteers and senators and even a president or two.

But the NUMBERS of them now...whoa!

And they&#039;re crowding out the competent from being given the simple opportunity to demonstrate their competency.

What better way to kill a country?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann said, &#8220;Can we live with the burden of unleashing the unqualified masses on an unsuspecting public?&#8221;</p>
<p>But, they&#8217;re already out there.  They are MRI techs and nurses and doctors and schoolteachers and principals and professors and deans and used car salesmen and education profiteers and senators and even a president or two.</p>
<p>But the NUMBERS of them now&#8230;whoa!</p>
<p>And they&#8217;re crowding out the competent from being given the simple opportunity to demonstrate their competency.</p>
<p>What better way to kill a country?</p>
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		<title>By: quixote</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-601589</link>
		<dc:creator>quixote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-601589</guid>
		<description>Me too, sorry to go on and on, but as I say, this one is close to home.  

Re: performing to the same curve.  Absolutely.  It&#039;s pretty much a Law: Student performance will equal half of their perceived expectation of the requirements. I.e. X(asked) =&gt; 1/2 X(result).

The funniest instance of that I&#039;ve seen was in a beginning computer operating system class I took to broaden my horizons.  I was the only actual beginner.  The rest were all sysops satisfying job requirements for continuing education.  And they made so much noise about how difficult the first exam was that the prof actually asked me whether it was really that bad.  It was so far from bad it was &lt;i&gt;easy&lt;/i&gt;.  He seemed very relieved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Me too, sorry to go on and on, but as I say, this one is close to home.  </p>
<p>Re: performing to the same curve.  Absolutely.  It&#8217;s pretty much a Law: Student performance will equal half of their perceived expectation of the requirements. I.e. X(asked) =&gt; 1/2 X(result).</p>
<p>The funniest instance of that I&#8217;ve seen was in a beginning computer operating system class I took to broaden my horizons.  I was the only actual beginner.  The rest were all sysops satisfying job requirements for continuing education.  And they made so much noise about how difficult the first exam was that the prof actually asked me whether it was really that bad.  It was so far from bad it was <i>easy</i>.  He seemed very relieved.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-601172</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 01:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-601172</guid>
		<description>Z&#039;s comment suggests a metareason not to slacken standards:  no matter how much rope you give them, they&#039;ll still perform to about the same curve.  (And quixote&#039;s comment suggests another, extremely important reason not to go easy in the &quot;lower-division classes for non-majors:&quot;  do you really want one of those students with an inflated grade to be your surgical nurse or MRI tech?  Can we live with the burden of unleashing the unqualified masses on an unsuspecting public?

I know I wouldn&#039;t be able to sleep at night.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Z&#8217;s comment suggests a metareason not to slacken standards:  no matter how much rope you give them, they&#8217;ll still perform to about the same curve.  (And quixote&#8217;s comment suggests another, extremely important reason not to go easy in the &#8220;lower-division classes for non-majors:&#8221;  do you really want one of those students with an inflated grade to be your surgical nurse or MRI tech?  Can we live with the burden of unleashing the unqualified masses on an unsuspecting public?</p>
<p>I know I wouldn&#8217;t be able to sleep at night.</p>
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		<title>By: quixote</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-601066</link>
		<dc:creator>quixote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-601066</guid>
		<description>This one cuts too close to home.  I&#039;ve taught those classes, although luckily I&#039;ve never had to deal with an administration like Homberger&#039;s.

(What&#039;s up with that, by the way?  I know I&#039;m dating myself, but even when I was a temp, it was understood that all academic matters were the sole purview of the Department.  The Chair could give you beans about inconsistent grading across sections, but not a Dean or Provost.  Has this changed while I&#039;ve been off in my own little world?)

Non-majors Bio classes, if they have a lab, satisfy the biology requirement for many medical and nursing schools.  So plenty of the students are pre-health professionals, even if not strictly bio majors.

As one of my colleagues often said, his worst nightmare was arriving in the operating room and recognizing one of his students, still looking just as gormless.

There are some vital (literally) reasons for rigor in these classes.

And even if the students are dance majors, many current issues require some knowledge of biology (eg, stem cells, climate change, estrogen-analogue pollutants like BPA).  Democracy is supposed to depend on informed voters, so requiring all students to show some grasp of the information doesn&#039;t seem unreasonable. 

As for the 90% failure rate, that, too, is not uncommon.  You don&#039;t hear about it because most people curve the scores, but tests -- especially early in the semester -- where 90% of the students answer less than 50% of the questions correctly are not uncommon.

I, and many other profs, &quot;frontloaded&quot; our classes, like Homberger, although maybe not as vividly.  The idea is to make it clear to the students just how much time, studying, and aptitude the class requires &lt;i&gt;before&lt;/i&gt; the drop date.  It seems kinder, overall, to give them the option of a W rather than an indelible F.

The part that blows me away about this story isn&#039;t even whether Homberger was doing anything unusual (only in her honesty).  It&#039;s that the administration takes it upon themselves to tell her how to grade!  There&#039;s a name for those places.  Diploma mills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This one cuts too close to home.  I&#8217;ve taught those classes, although luckily I&#8217;ve never had to deal with an administration like Homberger&#8217;s.</p>
<p>(What&#8217;s up with that, by the way?  I know I&#8217;m dating myself, but even when I was a temp, it was understood that all academic matters were the sole purview of the Department.  The Chair could give you beans about inconsistent grading across sections, but not a Dean or Provost.  Has this changed while I&#8217;ve been off in my own little world?)</p>
<p>Non-majors Bio classes, if they have a lab, satisfy the biology requirement for many medical and nursing schools.  So plenty of the students are pre-health professionals, even if not strictly bio majors.</p>
<p>As one of my colleagues often said, his worst nightmare was arriving in the operating room and recognizing one of his students, still looking just as gormless.</p>
<p>There are some vital (literally) reasons for rigor in these classes.</p>
<p>And even if the students are dance majors, many current issues require some knowledge of biology (eg, stem cells, climate change, estrogen-analogue pollutants like BPA).  Democracy is supposed to depend on informed voters, so requiring all students to show some grasp of the information doesn&#8217;t seem unreasonable. </p>
<p>As for the 90% failure rate, that, too, is not uncommon.  You don&#8217;t hear about it because most people curve the scores, but tests &#8212; especially early in the semester &#8212; where 90% of the students answer less than 50% of the questions correctly are not uncommon.</p>
<p>I, and many other profs, &#8220;frontloaded&#8221; our classes, like Homberger, although maybe not as vividly.  The idea is to make it clear to the students just how much time, studying, and aptitude the class requires <i>before</i> the drop date.  It seems kinder, overall, to give them the option of a W rather than an indelible F.</p>
<p>The part that blows me away about this story isn&#8217;t even whether Homberger was doing anything unusual (only in her honesty).  It&#8217;s that the administration takes it upon themselves to tell her how to grade!  There&#8217;s a name for those places.  Diploma mills.</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-601008</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-601008</guid>
		<description>P.S. Sorry to go on and on, but. 

Matt L: &quot;I didn’t have a chance to read the link, but there has to be more to the story. Was some state legislator’s kid in danger of flunking bio 101?&quot; I&#039;m sure, and also probably some ExxonMobil execs&#039; kids.

90% drop/fail on first test, well I typically get this as a raw result in any course with freshmen in it -- especially if I apply the standards I learned to have as a TA. What I do is, bump everyone up half a grade automatically and see what it looks like then.

If not enough are passing at that point, I then start curving more. The results are that students are not pushed improve that much unless they are motivated for their own reasons, and/but that the higher ups are less unhappy with me than they would otherwise be. Women are supposed to be NICE, you know!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. Sorry to go on and on, but. </p>
<p>Matt L: &#8220;I didn’t have a chance to read the link, but there has to be more to the story. Was some state legislator’s kid in danger of flunking bio 101?&#8221; I&#8217;m sure, and also probably some ExxonMobil execs&#8217; kids.</p>
<p>90% drop/fail on first test, well I typically get this as a raw result in any course with freshmen in it &#8212; especially if I apply the standards I learned to have as a TA. What I do is, bump everyone up half a grade automatically and see what it looks like then.</p>
<p>If not enough are passing at that point, I then start curving more. The results are that students are not pushed improve that much unless they are motivated for their own reasons, and/but that the higher ups are less unhappy with me than they would otherwise be. Women are supposed to be NICE, you know!</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-601002</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-601002</guid>
		<description>Also -- to &quot;taking it outside&quot; -- yes, I know.

But I notice that the students who are most freaked out about grades are the ones who don&#039;t study or plan to, or who aren&#039;t prepared for the course but also aren&#039;t willing to go back and take the prerequisites. I always advise dropping to these groups of students but they don&#039;t want to hear of it: they want some sort of guarantee that they will not only pass, but earn a high grade without meeting the regular course requirements.

Also, I notice that students decide to be intimated on really irrational grounds. I gave a quiz the other day consisting of 5 items to identify. I revealed 3 of the 5 48 hours ahead of time. There was an additional list of possible items given out at that time. I explained that of those items, 6 would appear on the quiz and of those 6, each person was to choose 2.

So: 3 items were pre-revealed, and the other two came from a pre-revealed list, and there was to be a choice on those two.

But what the students said at the time of the quiz was that they had not understood that I would choose 6 items from that list and they would choose 2. They said they had not been sure *and had been afraid to ask*, and so had decided I meant they were to choose any 2 from the whole list. Now, they said, it was unfair of me not to let them do that.

What seems bogus to me in all of this is that they allege having been afraid to ask for clarification of the quiz format ahead of time, but were not at all afraid to ask for it to be mega-easy when the moment of truth came.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also &#8212; to &#8220;taking it outside&#8221; &#8212; yes, I know.</p>
<p>But I notice that the students who are most freaked out about grades are the ones who don&#8217;t study or plan to, or who aren&#8217;t prepared for the course but also aren&#8217;t willing to go back and take the prerequisites. I always advise dropping to these groups of students but they don&#8217;t want to hear of it: they want some sort of guarantee that they will not only pass, but earn a high grade without meeting the regular course requirements.</p>
<p>Also, I notice that students decide to be intimated on really irrational grounds. I gave a quiz the other day consisting of 5 items to identify. I revealed 3 of the 5 48 hours ahead of time. There was an additional list of possible items given out at that time. I explained that of those items, 6 would appear on the quiz and of those 6, each person was to choose 2.</p>
<p>So: 3 items were pre-revealed, and the other two came from a pre-revealed list, and there was to be a choice on those two.</p>
<p>But what the students said at the time of the quiz was that they had not understood that I would choose 6 items from that list and they would choose 2. They said they had not been sure *and had been afraid to ask*, and so had decided I meant they were to choose any 2 from the whole list. Now, they said, it was unfair of me not to let them do that.</p>
<p>What seems bogus to me in all of this is that they allege having been afraid to ask for clarification of the quiz format ahead of time, but were not at all afraid to ask for it to be mega-easy when the moment of truth came.</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-600990</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-600990</guid>
		<description>P.S. There are a lot of ways for non majors to meet those requirements, but a lot of advisors, peer advisors and parents don&#039;t realize it. They hear of one course that meets a requirement, and they tell students and advisees that that course is &quot;required.&quot; This feeds the idea that the students are effectively incarcerated in the course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. There are a lot of ways for non majors to meet those requirements, but a lot of advisors, peer advisors and parents don&#8217;t realize it. They hear of one course that meets a requirement, and they tell students and advisees that that course is &#8220;required.&#8221; This feeds the idea that the students are effectively incarcerated in the course.</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-600947</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-600947</guid>
		<description>Cgeye - no, it&#039;s not related to Katrina, I don&#039;t think. Not that relatively few LSU students are from N.O. Also, I don&#039;t think the administration would act so fast in support of N.O. students. This is a defense of more privileged types, I believe. LSU is a big Greek and football school and is predominantly white. It has a largely suburban/rural student population.

What is strange is that nobody talked to the professor, they just acted. This is getting more and more common. Administrators believe whatever is first said, and do not actually investigate.

Still, I do not really understand why it is no longer seen as the student&#039;s responsibility, if they are failing, to either study or drop -- although I have some ideas.

1) Many cannot afford to drop because if they do they will have to refund some of their student loan money, so they will not be able to make rent, etc. 

2) Others cannot afford to drop/fail because they have TOPS. This is a partial or complete tuition waiver for which you can apply if you have a 2.5 or higher GPA in high school and an ACT score around the state average. Many students enter college with TOPS but do not keep it, because college is harder than high school and the minimum requirements for TOPS are not terribly high. However, since TOPS came in, there has been a lot of pressure on faculty to give grades that will allow students to maintain their tuition waivers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cgeye &#8211; no, it&#8217;s not related to Katrina, I don&#8217;t think. Not that relatively few LSU students are from N.O. Also, I don&#8217;t think the administration would act so fast in support of N.O. students. This is a defense of more privileged types, I believe. LSU is a big Greek and football school and is predominantly white. It has a largely suburban/rural student population.</p>
<p>What is strange is that nobody talked to the professor, they just acted. This is getting more and more common. Administrators believe whatever is first said, and do not actually investigate.</p>
<p>Still, I do not really understand why it is no longer seen as the student&#8217;s responsibility, if they are failing, to either study or drop &#8212; although I have some ideas.</p>
<p>1) Many cannot afford to drop because if they do they will have to refund some of their student loan money, so they will not be able to make rent, etc. </p>
<p>2) Others cannot afford to drop/fail because they have TOPS. This is a partial or complete tuition waiver for which you can apply if you have a 2.5 or higher GPA in high school and an ACT score around the state average. Many students enter college with TOPS but do not keep it, because college is harder than high school and the minimum requirements for TOPS are not terribly high. However, since TOPS came in, there has been a lot of pressure on faculty to give grades that will allow students to maintain their tuition waivers.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/04/16/grade-deflation-student-frustration-proffies-early-vacation/comment-page-1/#comment-600913</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=10477#comment-600913</guid>
		<description>takingitoutside:  of course the students were volunteers!  College education is not mandatory, and although most students were probably taking the course to check a box in their distribution requirements, presumably there were other ways to satisfy that requirement.  

The students are totally within their rights not to like her class, but they need to take responsibility for their educations.  The administrators&#039; end-run appears to make the professor and administrators responsible for students&#039; educations, not the students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>takingitoutside:  of course the students were volunteers!  College education is not mandatory, and although most students were probably taking the course to check a box in their distribution requirements, presumably there were other ways to satisfy that requirement.  </p>
<p>The students are totally within their rights not to like her class, but they need to take responsibility for their educations.  The administrators&#8217; end-run appears to make the professor and administrators responsible for students&#8217; educations, not the students.</p>
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