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	<title>Comments on: GayProf and Historiann teach it all, part II:  how the west is (still) lost</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Rethinking the U.S. History Survey &#171; Jacobpedia</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-584658</link>
		<dc:creator>Rethinking the U.S. History Survey &#171; Jacobpedia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-584658</guid>
		<description>[...] number of suggestions on how to improve it, particularly how to make it more inclusive.  The whole series is worth reading, but in Part III, one of Historiann&#8217;s suggestions caught my attention: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] number of suggestions on how to improve it, particularly how to make it more inclusive.  The whole series is worth reading, but in Part III, one of Historiann&#8217;s suggestions caught my attention: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Campus Round Up &#171; Like a Whisper</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-569013</link>
		<dc:creator>Campus Round Up &#171; Like a Whisper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-569013</guid>
		<description>[...] competing and complimentary narratives across history, etc. over at Gay Prof&#8217;s and Historiann&#8217;s. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)California Apologizes for Racist Policies [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] competing and complimentary narratives across history, etc. over at Gay Prof&#8217;s and Historiann&#8217;s. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)California Apologizes for Racist Policies [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann and GayProf teach it all, part III: Revolution! : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-568923</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann and GayProf teach it all, part III: Revolution! : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-568923</guid>
		<description>[...] Comment!  Argue!  Enjoy!   (If you need to do the homework first, here&#8217;s Part I, and here&#8217;s Part II of our [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Comment!  Argue!  Enjoy!   (If you need to do the homework first, here&#8217;s Part I, and here&#8217;s Part II of our [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nikki</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-568920</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 13:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-568920</guid>
		<description>As has been pointed out, knowing only English means historians of the u.S. really only have to master one historiography--that of scholarship published in English.  This leads to a certain parochialism.  For example, I study women and gender history in &quot;Country X,&quot; so I have do research in that language and know the historiography of my topic(s) in English and language of Country X.  Inevitably, when I discuss my research with historians of the u.S., they want to know how my research relates to the U.S.  &quot;What were we doing here in the U.S. at that time?&quot;  Or, &quot;Oh, historians of the U.S. did *that* topic years ago, we&#039;ve moved on to discussing something new.&quot;  Heidi Tinsman has a great article in the AHR that discusses how this is problematic--it forces all other histories into a U.S.-centric paradigm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As has been pointed out, knowing only English means historians of the u.S. really only have to master one historiography&#8211;that of scholarship published in English.  This leads to a certain parochialism.  For example, I study women and gender history in &#8220;Country X,&#8221; so I have do research in that language and know the historiography of my topic(s) in English and language of Country X.  Inevitably, when I discuss my research with historians of the u.S., they want to know how my research relates to the U.S.  &#8220;What were we doing here in the U.S. at that time?&#8221;  Or, &#8220;Oh, historians of the U.S. did *that* topic years ago, we&#8217;ve moved on to discussing something new.&#8221;  Heidi Tinsman has a great article in the AHR that discusses how this is problematic&#8211;it forces all other histories into a U.S.-centric paradigm.</p>
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		<title>By: myiq2xu</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-568734</link>
		<dc:creator>myiq2xu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 06:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-568734</guid>
		<description>What I find most troubling isn&#039;t how little the average citizen knows about US history, it&#039;s all the things they think they know that are wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find most troubling isn&#8217;t how little the average citizen knows about US history, it&#8217;s all the things they think they know that are wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Prof. Koshary</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-568681</link>
		<dc:creator>Prof. Koshary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 04:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-568681</guid>
		<description>I have something of a skew perspective on this, since I&#039;m not a historian.  In my discipline, grad students are assumed to need at least one other language for PhD research and, at least in theory, formally tested on such before they can jaunt off to research.  In instances where people are doing research in an Anglophone area, I think it&#039;s more common than it ought to be, though, that people wangle language exemptions out of their advisors, rather than take the old-school path of acquiring, say, French or German for expanded theory reading.  

The larger similarity that I see, though, is that only recently have (most) people begun to deal seriously with literature published in a language they have acquired for research.  Historically, a lot of our crowd have regarded language acquisition as a primarily oral exercise -- as in, &quot;What would I bother to read in Language X, when everything worthwhile is in English?&quot;  Ethnocentric at best, and sometimes distressingly racist, too.

Acquiring my main research language slowed down my grad school progress by a year and had moments of pure agony, so I certainly see the trouble for those not inclined that way to put forth the effort.  (I&#039;m a language geek, so I was excited for the opportunity.)  But the ones who treated the language classes as some irritating burden to be borne until they could escape paid for it: it&#039;s pretty obvious to everyone when a dissertation based on ethnographic research was written by someone who didn&#039;t understand what people were saying.

There&#039;s another problem for grad students related to both underfunded language departments and that fucking five-years-and-alley-oop model of grad programs: funding for the extra time that language acquisition requires.  Some languages are hot and sexy with funding sources, and students can apply for FLAS grants and so forth to underwrite their studies.  Other languages, like Spanish (as GayProf and Historiann have discussed at length), get short-shrifted at every level, and a lot of researchers who desperately need a year or two to sit down and get schooled in the new language are left to their own devices.  It&#039;s staggering to read the old classics of the discipline and see how our venerable predecessors could while away two or three years doing nothing but language acquisition on their universities&#039; accounts, before actually getting down to work.  But since that possibility seemed to go hand in hand with the old white boys&#039; club of academia, perhaps I shouldn&#039;t be too nostalgic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have something of a skew perspective on this, since I&#8217;m not a historian.  In my discipline, grad students are assumed to need at least one other language for PhD research and, at least in theory, formally tested on such before they can jaunt off to research.  In instances where people are doing research in an Anglophone area, I think it&#8217;s more common than it ought to be, though, that people wangle language exemptions out of their advisors, rather than take the old-school path of acquiring, say, French or German for expanded theory reading.  </p>
<p>The larger similarity that I see, though, is that only recently have (most) people begun to deal seriously with literature published in a language they have acquired for research.  Historically, a lot of our crowd have regarded language acquisition as a primarily oral exercise &#8212; as in, &#8220;What would I bother to read in Language X, when everything worthwhile is in English?&#8221;  Ethnocentric at best, and sometimes distressingly racist, too.</p>
<p>Acquiring my main research language slowed down my grad school progress by a year and had moments of pure agony, so I certainly see the trouble for those not inclined that way to put forth the effort.  (I&#8217;m a language geek, so I was excited for the opportunity.)  But the ones who treated the language classes as some irritating burden to be borne until they could escape paid for it: it&#8217;s pretty obvious to everyone when a dissertation based on ethnographic research was written by someone who didn&#8217;t understand what people were saying.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s another problem for grad students related to both underfunded language departments and that fucking five-years-and-alley-oop model of grad programs: funding for the extra time that language acquisition requires.  Some languages are hot and sexy with funding sources, and students can apply for FLAS grants and so forth to underwrite their studies.  Other languages, like Spanish (as GayProf and Historiann have discussed at length), get short-shrifted at every level, and a lot of researchers who desperately need a year or two to sit down and get schooled in the new language are left to their own devices.  It&#8217;s staggering to read the old classics of the discipline and see how our venerable predecessors could while away two or three years doing nothing but language acquisition on their universities&#8217; accounts, before actually getting down to work.  But since that possibility seemed to go hand in hand with the old white boys&#8217; club of academia, perhaps I shouldn&#8217;t be too nostalgic.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-568644</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 02:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-568644</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Paul: I wonder if the language thing is a historical legacy of the nineteenth century conflicts with Mexico. During that time, Euro Americans spent considerable time trashing the Spanish language as evidence of Mexicans’ supposed racial inferiority (Hard to imagine how they made those leaps, but they did). It wasn’t just that they wanted Mexican Americans “to learn English,” but they actually wanted the total obliteration of Spanish, too.&lt;/i&gt;

Interesting - I had never heard about the language itself being regarded as inferior.

On a tangent, I wonder how much of the negative stereotyping of Spanish-speaking peoples in Mexico and elsewhere by Anglo-Americans was borrowed from older English negative stereotypes about the European Spanish, which were already part of the cultural baggage of the earliest English settlers in North America.

Historiann - Regarding whether it&#039;s defensible for American historians remain monolingual, I&#039;m not a historian myself, but I would think that a lot depends on what a particular scholar specializes in. There must be some places/times/topics where almost all of the sources really are in English, so a scholar there wouldn&#039;t be missing much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Paul: I wonder if the language thing is a historical legacy of the nineteenth century conflicts with Mexico. During that time, Euro Americans spent considerable time trashing the Spanish language as evidence of Mexicans’ supposed racial inferiority (Hard to imagine how they made those leaps, but they did). It wasn’t just that they wanted Mexican Americans “to learn English,” but they actually wanted the total obliteration of Spanish, too.</i></p>
<p>Interesting &#8211; I had never heard about the language itself being regarded as inferior.</p>
<p>On a tangent, I wonder how much of the negative stereotyping of Spanish-speaking peoples in Mexico and elsewhere by Anglo-Americans was borrowed from older English negative stereotypes about the European Spanish, which were already part of the cultural baggage of the earliest English settlers in North America.</p>
<p>Historiann &#8211; Regarding whether it&#8217;s defensible for American historians remain monolingual, I&#8217;m not a historian myself, but I would think that a lot depends on what a particular scholar specializes in. There must be some places/times/topics where almost all of the sources really are in English, so a scholar there wouldn&#8217;t be missing much.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaz</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-568614</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 01:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-568614</guid>
		<description>Love these convos.  An array of belated and random comments:

1) Historiann -- hey, some of us have actualy made careers using those stats courses!!  Not that they should necessarily be a &#039;language&#039;, but I&#039;m a fan, generally, of encouraging historians to look outside their discipline (as well as learning languages).

2) At a certain Ivy grad school in the 1990s that shall remain nameless, a US history colleague had to fight to have Spanish allowed as a &#039;scholarly&#039; language.  Up to that point, it was French or German, unless you showed an exceptional need for such marginal tongues as, uh, Spanish.  This is no longer the case, so maybe that is progress?

3) I teach the colonial survey as cultural encounters: equal time on each topic for Europeans (Fr, Sp, Eng, some Dutch and German), Africans, and Native Americans.  But things fall apart when I get to social life -- just not as much to draw from for all those groups, unfortunately.  Every year I try to do a little more -- I finally have a kickass week on witchcraft that ranges from Europe to Mexico to Iroquoia to... what&#039;s that place again?... oh yeah, Salem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love these convos.  An array of belated and random comments:</p>
<p>1) Historiann &#8212; hey, some of us have actualy made careers using those stats courses!!  Not that they should necessarily be a &#8216;language&#8217;, but I&#8217;m a fan, generally, of encouraging historians to look outside their discipline (as well as learning languages).</p>
<p>2) At a certain Ivy grad school in the 1990s that shall remain nameless, a US history colleague had to fight to have Spanish allowed as a &#8216;scholarly&#8217; language.  Up to that point, it was French or German, unless you showed an exceptional need for such marginal tongues as, uh, Spanish.  This is no longer the case, so maybe that is progress?</p>
<p>3) I teach the colonial survey as cultural encounters: equal time on each topic for Europeans (Fr, Sp, Eng, some Dutch and German), Africans, and Native Americans.  But things fall apart when I get to social life &#8212; just not as much to draw from for all those groups, unfortunately.  Every year I try to do a little more &#8212; I finally have a kickass week on witchcraft that ranges from Europe to Mexico to Iroquoia to&#8230; what&#8217;s that place again?&#8230; oh yeah, Salem.</p>
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		<title>By: Janice</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-568581</link>
		<dc:creator>Janice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 00:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-568581</guid>
		<description>Oh, I should post about language training. I am not the poster child for second language fluency (far from it -- ask Josette at my U who&#039;s suffered through trying to get me past Intermediate French for far too many years) but at least I had two other languages (German and Latin) under my belt before I thought to add French. And I threw in a bit of Italian on my own to aid in my dissertation work.

Contrast this with the sad truth that our fully bilingual university requires no second language work or certification from students. So we will routinely graduate students who are monolingual (almost always in the Anglophone stream, mind you, not our Francophones who are mostly functionally bilingual just from the regional culture).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I should post about language training. I am not the poster child for second language fluency (far from it &#8212; ask Josette at my U who&#8217;s suffered through trying to get me past Intermediate French for far too many years) but at least I had two other languages (German and Latin) under my belt before I thought to add French. And I threw in a bit of Italian on my own to aid in my dissertation work.</p>
<p>Contrast this with the sad truth that our fully bilingual university requires no second language work or certification from students. So we will routinely graduate students who are monolingual (almost always in the Anglophone stream, mind you, not our Francophones who are mostly functionally bilingual just from the regional culture).</p>
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		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2010/03/04/gayprof-and-historiann-teach-it-all-how-the-west-is-still-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-568490</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 22:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=9806#comment-568490</guid>
		<description>Squadrato, thank&#039;s for that suggestion.  I have a few times just sat on a short foreign text and tried to piece my way through it with the help of a dictionary. Mixed success.  Funny you should mention Lisbon. Since the fall I&#039;ve corresponded with an American-born hispanicist in Madrid, who connected me with one of hir Spanish colleagues in Barcelona--to very good effect--on the trail of a certain source.  But then I discovered that my histori-d00d lammed out of Barcelona when the Bourbons prevailed there and went to Lisbon for the duration--which I presume meant for the duration of his life. So I&#039;ve been idly thinking about trying to acquire a historiographical pen-pal there too. My colonial Latin American colleague here began to help me pick through a Spanish document I fished off the internet, when ze said, whoah, man, this isn&#039;t Spanish, this is Catalan!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Squadrato, thank&#8217;s for that suggestion.  I have a few times just sat on a short foreign text and tried to piece my way through it with the help of a dictionary. Mixed success.  Funny you should mention Lisbon. Since the fall I&#8217;ve corresponded with an American-born hispanicist in Madrid, who connected me with one of hir Spanish colleagues in Barcelona&#8211;to very good effect&#8211;on the trail of a certain source.  But then I discovered that my histori-d00d lammed out of Barcelona when the Bourbons prevailed there and went to Lisbon for the duration&#8211;which I presume meant for the duration of his life. So I&#8217;ve been idly thinking about trying to acquire a historiographical pen-pal there too. My colonial Latin American colleague here began to help me pick through a Spanish document I fished off the internet, when ze said, whoah, man, this isn&#8217;t Spanish, this is Catalan!</p>
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