The questions raised by Tom, thefrogprincess, and Philosopher P around time-to-degree and the value of the Ph.D. are all related to the question of adequate funding for graduate students. If Ph.D. programs accepted only the number of students they could fund, and guaranteed them 6 years of funding, then I think we’d see the time-to-degree shrink. The time-to-degree, as many others have noted, is largely related to the need-for-money while finishing a dissertation. Regular faculty have no authority over their own budgets and so can’t solve the humanities job crisis on their own, but we do have authority over whom we admit to our graduate programs, and on what terms.

I have seen students be terribly blithe about having to borrow money for grad school, even for an M.A.–they don’t know what that debt will look or feel like 8 years down the road, when they’re 30 rather than 22. I know that when I’ve sent students into Ph.D. programs (3 in my entire career), discussions of funding were first and foremost. I made sure they thought about the programs at year 4 or 5 or 6, not just the alluring offer made for year 1 or 2.

My view: generally, young (experience, not age) lawyers rarely have much of an opportunity to participate in oral argument or serve as lead author on briefs for important appellate cases. Indeed, why would they? Miscanthus is exactly right on the state of just-licensed lawyers, and passing the bar is such inadequate preparation for practice that it gives rise to the maudlin joke, ‘the most dangerous creature in the country is a lawyer who just passed the bar exam.’

For an important appellate case that is set for oral argument at a federal court of appeals or the USSCT itself, the clients are frequently paying ungodly sums of money for the most elite appellate shops. Appellate litigation is extraordinarily difficult to do well, and engaging attorneys who have some kind of credibility with the court is critical in important cases. What kind of sophisticated party — b/c, contrary to popular belief, constitutional law cases involving powerless litigants are a minuscule percentage of the cases actually heard by upper level state and federal appellate courts — who has spent enormous sums of money just to get to an upper level appellate court is generally going to be in favor of vesting most of the responsibility for preparing the case and the argument to an inexperienced attorney?

It does happen, but it is exceedingly rare, IMO. I don’t know how long it takes an attorney to get a USSCT argument, but given some of the above, I actually think ten years is probably on the conservative side. Many fine appellate lawyers will not even sniff a USSCT case in their entire career.

The other thing I’ve noticed, as I’ve been on several searches both in philosophy and other fields, is that many folks are awarded MAs without the breadth of graduate level coursework necessary to be a good hire. In the US system, that kind of breadth most often comes with a Ph.D — or, at least being ABD. I don’t want someone with a narrow focus in my department, as those folks won’t be happy with their teaching load — and, since I like to teach nearly all the classes, I don’t want to be stepping on any toes when I select “their” classes in the schedule rotation. Also, I want every member of the faculty to be able to contribute to revisions of course outlines. That just doesn’t happen when you get awarded an MA based on a number of hours in the discipline — and no requirement that those hours be distributed in a meaningful manner.

I wish I could write books called HIGHER EDUCATION ACTUALLY WORKS, GIVEN THE PROPER INVESTMENT BY GOVERNMENT AND EFFORT BY STUDENTS, or DON’T BLAME THE TEACHERS,BLAME THE BANKERS, or FEMINISM WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

I’d read ‘em!

The flip side of this is that my sense has long been that my British colleagues tended to have narrower foci/knowledge than we did. Back in the dark ages when I did my thesis, I was the one who had read Annales stuff, for instance, and not just Past and Present. I may cringe about teaching survey courses — western civ, world, etc — but doing sure does make me think in new ways about my work. (Oh, and my colleagues in Britain would rarely teach both political and social history of our field.)

One of my friends offered the analogy of a driver’s license as the Ph.D. It says you know how to do the work, and you’re OK on the road. You don’t yet drive a big rig, though…. I use that to get students to let up on their expectations of writing the greatest ever work of history as their dissertation.

I suppose it’s obvious from my comment, but you asked about Supreme Court argument, Historiann, so I’ll offer my opinion that a good ten years of appellate practice would be the absolute minimum of preparation.

The only people who I am aware of ever having appeared before SCOTUS without ten years of appellate practice experience are pro se litigants (i.e., representing themselves), of which there have been a handful over the years.