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	<title>Comments on: Keeping up appearances:  what about you?</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-471899</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 20:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-471899</guid>
		<description>Dance, love this:

&lt;i&gt;I pretend RMP doesn’t exist, so I don’t know about that.&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s the only way to go.  Why should we waste our beautiful minds on randomslander.com?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dance, love this:</p>
<p><i>I pretend RMP doesn’t exist, so I don’t know about that.</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s the only way to go.  Why should we waste our beautiful minds on randomslander.com?</p>
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		<title>By: dance</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-471845</link>
		<dc:creator>dance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-471845</guid>
		<description>I have clearly missed the conversation, but for the archives:

My standard teaching/conference uniform is a skirt with a twin-set and a scarf (not always official matching twinsets, but always a knit top with a cardigan). Ideally with boots, usually opaque tights. Lots of sleeveless tops, which no one has ever said anything about.

I get a lot of clothing comments from colleagues and office staff, but I think that&#039;s because the scarves (sometimes the skirts) are usually colorful patterns. I do not remember EVER seeing a student comment on my appearance on evals. I pretend RMP doesn&#039;t exist, so I don&#039;t know about that.

I recommend trying out scarves.  By giving people something to focus on, I&#039;m much more comfortable being looked at. They draw attention to the face and chest, but I don&#039;t have to worry that people are staring at my boobs because there is a six-color complicated pattern they could easily be mesmerized by. Long hanging fabric also distracts from the very common too-tightness around my hips that always looks so obvious to me.  They are also often strategic in case of disasters at professional meals. (I&#039;m not particularly large-breasted, so I don&#039;t know if that works in that context)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have clearly missed the conversation, but for the archives:</p>
<p>My standard teaching/conference uniform is a skirt with a twin-set and a scarf (not always official matching twinsets, but always a knit top with a cardigan). Ideally with boots, usually opaque tights. Lots of sleeveless tops, which no one has ever said anything about.</p>
<p>I get a lot of clothing comments from colleagues and office staff, but I think that&#8217;s because the scarves (sometimes the skirts) are usually colorful patterns. I do not remember EVER seeing a student comment on my appearance on evals. I pretend RMP doesn&#8217;t exist, so I don&#8217;t know about that.</p>
<p>I recommend trying out scarves.  By giving people something to focus on, I&#8217;m much more comfortable being looked at. They draw attention to the face and chest, but I don&#8217;t have to worry that people are staring at my boobs because there is a six-color complicated pattern they could easily be mesmerized by. Long hanging fabric also distracts from the very common too-tightness around my hips that always looks so obvious to me.  They are also often strategic in case of disasters at professional meals. (I&#8217;m not particularly large-breasted, so I don&#8217;t know if that works in that context)</p>
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		<title>By: Caukee</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-470717</link>
		<dc:creator>Caukee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-470717</guid>
		<description>As one with much experience of large breasts and button-downs, I second the advice to get to a tailor. While there, look into having button-down shirts tailored. [Maybe I&#039;m spoiled by all the military here, and this isn&#039;t widely available.] A good tailor should be able to walk you through finding the right shirt, one  that can then be fitted without gaping. Some folks need them made from &quot;scratch&quot;, but not most.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one with much experience of large breasts and button-downs, I second the advice to get to a tailor. While there, look into having button-down shirts tailored. [Maybe I'm spoiled by all the military here, and this isn't widely available.] A good tailor should be able to walk you through finding the right shirt, one  that can then be fitted without gaping. Some folks need them made from &#8220;scratch&#8221;, but not most.</p>
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		<title>By: Comrade PhysioProf</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-470614</link>
		<dc:creator>Comrade PhysioProf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-470614</guid>
		<description>I dress like a total fucking slob all the fucking time, and it has absolutely zero effect on whether I am treated with professional respect. This is, of course, one of the benefits of my white male privilege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dress like a total fucking slob all the fucking time, and it has absolutely zero effect on whether I am treated with professional respect. This is, of course, one of the benefits of my white male privilege.</p>
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		<title>By: clio's disciple</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-470334</link>
		<dc:creator>clio's disciple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-470334</guid>
		<description>For the last several years I have interviewed for jobs fat, because, well, I am fat. Losing 15 pounds would not make a difference in that fact. No search committee member made any comments about my weight, but I can&#039;t speak to what they might have been thinking. I did get an offer, but I certainly had many rejections as well.  

For those of you who find it difficult to find clothes that fit well, it may be well worthwhile to pay a tailor to alter one suit jacket to fit. I do think it&#039;s important to interview in something that actually fits you, that is even, if possible, comfortable--the whole process is stressful enough without adding unnecessary physical discomfort into the situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the last several years I have interviewed for jobs fat, because, well, I am fat. Losing 15 pounds would not make a difference in that fact. No search committee member made any comments about my weight, but I can&#8217;t speak to what they might have been thinking. I did get an offer, but I certainly had many rejections as well.  </p>
<p>For those of you who find it difficult to find clothes that fit well, it may be well worthwhile to pay a tailor to alter one suit jacket to fit. I do think it&#8217;s important to interview in something that actually fits you, that is even, if possible, comfortable&#8211;the whole process is stressful enough without adding unnecessary physical discomfort into the situation.</p>
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		<title>By: The Bittersweet Girl</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-470317</link>
		<dc:creator>The Bittersweet Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-470317</guid>
		<description>Well, there&#039;s so much I&#039;d like to say on this subject but I&#039;ll focus on two comments:

Re: Job market dress and especially hotel interviews at AHA or MLA: I was recommended to wear pants because those hotel interviews are often rather strangely organized. The horror story I heard was about a woman in a knee-length skirt who was interviewed by a man who *sat on the floor* right in front of her. Geez. 

Re: Boobs. I&#039;ve got &#039;em in spades and I&#039;ve had far too many occasions when male students leered at me or stared as if mesmerized during class. (As if I couldn&#039;t see them. Little bastards). But, in my experience, the ol&#039; suit jacket has one thing going for it: it distracts from the boobs. I never felt like anyone noticed my boobs when I was dressed in my interview suits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there&#8217;s so much I&#8217;d like to say on this subject but I&#8217;ll focus on two comments:</p>
<p>Re: Job market dress and especially hotel interviews at AHA or MLA: I was recommended to wear pants because those hotel interviews are often rather strangely organized. The horror story I heard was about a woman in a knee-length skirt who was interviewed by a man who *sat on the floor* right in front of her. Geez. </p>
<p>Re: Boobs. I&#8217;ve got &#8216;em in spades and I&#8217;ve had far too many occasions when male students leered at me or stared as if mesmerized during class. (As if I couldn&#8217;t see them. Little bastards). But, in my experience, the ol&#8217; suit jacket has one thing going for it: it distracts from the boobs. I never felt like anyone noticed my boobs when I was dressed in my interview suits.</p>
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		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-470153</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-470153</guid>
		<description>@New Kid.  In the Philadelphia Standard Metropolitan Litigation Area, from what I can see, there are LOTS of plus-size male lawyers.  They seem to have rhetorized it to advantage, though, with visual references to things like &quot;bigfoot litigator&quot; &quot;gravitas,&quot; &quot;courtroom heavyweight,&quot; whereas they may think that their young female associates write briefs on the treadmill or something. My grandfather was a lawyer in a time and place where &quot;rotund&quot; was some sort of compliment, and I heard about him that if he hadn&#039;t cultivated a rounded appearance by 30, people would assume he wasn&#039;t making enough to feed his big family, and it would become a self-fulfilling perception.  On lawyerly haberdashorial culture, my trajectory took me (very) briefly through a law firm, and when a partner was dressed up everyone thought and assumed they were &quot;on trial.&quot;  As a layman, it took me the longest time to figure out that this term didn&#039;t mean that the DA had indicted them, but rather that they had a case that was in the courtroom!  As in, &quot;I&#039;m on trial next week, so no, we can&#039;t have lunch, even though we&#039;ve been talking about it for months...&quot;  Talk about how lay language differs from shop jargon!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@New Kid.  In the Philadelphia Standard Metropolitan Litigation Area, from what I can see, there are LOTS of plus-size male lawyers.  They seem to have rhetorized it to advantage, though, with visual references to things like &#8220;bigfoot litigator&#8221; &#8220;gravitas,&#8221; &#8220;courtroom heavyweight,&#8221; whereas they may think that their young female associates write briefs on the treadmill or something. My grandfather was a lawyer in a time and place where &#8220;rotund&#8221; was some sort of compliment, and I heard about him that if he hadn&#8217;t cultivated a rounded appearance by 30, people would assume he wasn&#8217;t making enough to feed his big family, and it would become a self-fulfilling perception.  On lawyerly haberdashorial culture, my trajectory took me (very) briefly through a law firm, and when a partner was dressed up everyone thought and assumed they were &#8220;on trial.&#8221;  As a layman, it took me the longest time to figure out that this term didn&#8217;t mean that the DA had indicted them, but rather that they had a case that was in the courtroom!  As in, &#8220;I&#8217;m on trial next week, so no, we can&#8217;t have lunch, even though we&#8217;ve been talking about it for months&#8230;&#8221;  Talk about how lay language differs from shop jargon!</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-470080</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-470080</guid>
		<description>thefrogprincess--I second perpetua&#039;s wardrobe advice.  Invest in a good quality jacket (or tailored-looking sweater jacket) that fits well (no gaps, you can lift your arms over your head, etc.) and you can wear knit tops underneath that pack well and cover your cleavage.  Even small-breasted women can be surprised how large their pregnancy and &quot;nursing boobs&quot; are, so this advice is not just for larger-breasted women.  

I am disturbed, but not surprised, by New Kid&#039;s comments about weight.  As in other arenas, men have more latitude when it comes to weight.

It&#039;s interesting how much of the conversation here seems to revolve around the fact that women can&#039;t be perceived as too big or stand out too much (i.e. take up too much space mentally as well as physically.)  I acknowledge that this is what I&#039;m saying, too.  &lt;i&gt;Sigh.&lt;/i&gt;

Sorry to have been checked out of the conversation last night--big snow here (!) so I was shoveling out...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thefrogprincess&#8211;I second perpetua&#8217;s wardrobe advice.  Invest in a good quality jacket (or tailored-looking sweater jacket) that fits well (no gaps, you can lift your arms over your head, etc.) and you can wear knit tops underneath that pack well and cover your cleavage.  Even small-breasted women can be surprised how large their pregnancy and &#8220;nursing boobs&#8221; are, so this advice is not just for larger-breasted women.  </p>
<p>I am disturbed, but not surprised, by New Kid&#8217;s comments about weight.  As in other arenas, men have more latitude when it comes to weight.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting how much of the conversation here seems to revolve around the fact that women can&#8217;t be perceived as too big or stand out too much (i.e. take up too much space mentally as well as physically.)  I acknowledge that this is what I&#8217;m saying, too.  <i>Sigh.</i></p>
<p>Sorry to have been checked out of the conversation last night&#8211;big snow here (!) so I was shoveling out&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: The Rebel Lettriste</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-470079</link>
		<dc:creator>The Rebel Lettriste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-470079</guid>
		<description>Wini,
I am the daughter of an old school feminist, and I am a feminist myself!  I in no way meant that old school feminists were/are universally &quot;unattractive.&quot;

Rather, I meant that the most hostile critical receptions I have ever gotten have come from older feminists.  And those women were not attractive--either in their affect or their appearance.

Like the hostile questioner (a big name in the field) who sat with her arms crossed, frowning, furiously taking notes, shaking her head, and who made the first comment of the panel, directed at me, which was, &quot;I am not buying this.&quot;  And who I later discovered regularly tells her female advisees that she feels sorry for them because their scholarly lives &quot;are over&quot; if they decide to marry, much less have children.

I think that among academics, &quot;feminism&quot; can frequently apply more fully to one&#039;s scholarship than to one&#039;s behavior. 

Also, you don&#039;t have to spend a lot of money to be fashionable.  Everything &quot;designer&quot; I own was bought second hand or at a sample sale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wini,<br />
I am the daughter of an old school feminist, and I am a feminist myself!  I in no way meant that old school feminists were/are universally &#8220;unattractive.&#8221;</p>
<p>Rather, I meant that the most hostile critical receptions I have ever gotten have come from older feminists.  And those women were not attractive&#8211;either in their affect or their appearance.</p>
<p>Like the hostile questioner (a big name in the field) who sat with her arms crossed, frowning, furiously taking notes, shaking her head, and who made the first comment of the panel, directed at me, which was, &#8220;I am not buying this.&#8221;  And who I later discovered regularly tells her female advisees that she feels sorry for them because their scholarly lives &#8220;are over&#8221; if they decide to marry, much less have children.</p>
<p>I think that among academics, &#8220;feminism&#8221; can frequently apply more fully to one&#8217;s scholarship than to one&#8217;s behavior. </p>
<p>Also, you don&#8217;t have to spend a lot of money to be fashionable.  Everything &#8220;designer&#8221; I own was bought second hand or at a sample sale.</p>
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		<title>By: perpetua</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/10/28/keeping-up-appearances-what-about-you/comment-page-1/#comment-470044</link>
		<dc:creator>perpetua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=8070#comment-470044</guid>
		<description>@thefrogprincess - I probably shouldn&#039;t dispense unasked for fashion advice, but you might think about a suit jacket, or jacket with regular slacks.  That way, you can wear a shell or a non-button down shirt underneath and still not be too casual.  (My boobs normally are normal, but while nursing they grew to epic proportions and I couldn&#039;t wear button-downs either.)  My suit shell has a high round collar, not revealing at all.  If it&#039;s winter you can even wear a turtleneck with a jacket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@thefrogprincess &#8211; I probably shouldn&#8217;t dispense unasked for fashion advice, but you might think about a suit jacket, or jacket with regular slacks.  That way, you can wear a shell or a non-button down shirt underneath and still not be too casual.  (My boobs normally are normal, but while nursing they grew to epic proportions and I couldn&#8217;t wear button-downs either.)  My suit shell has a high round collar, not revealing at all.  If it&#8217;s winter you can even wear a turtleneck with a jacket.</p>
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