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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s a &#8220;good university?&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Letters of recommendation for job applicants: how important are they? : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-536351</link>
		<dc:creator>Letters of recommendation for job applicants: how important are they? : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-536351</guid>
		<description>[...] from FancyPants University.  (Maybe this is why I reacted so viscerally to that strangely proud description of the profoundly immoral search process described in Inside Higher Ed last fall&#8211;as did many of you.  It&#8217;s not how we roll&#8211;but then, my department&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from FancyPants University.  (Maybe this is why I reacted so viscerally to that strangely proud description of the profoundly immoral search process described in Inside Higher Ed last fall&#8211;as did many of you.  It&#8217;s not how we roll&#8211;but then, my department&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-426530</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-426530</guid>
		<description>THE--I would never say never to an application.  You never know where it might lead, and if all you get out of it is an AHA interview, that is still valuable experience.  (Actually, I don&#039;t think P-ton does AHA interviews!)

My advice is apply for everything that you can reasonably apply to.  (That is, don&#039;t stretch yourself to apply for jobs for which you&#039;re not exactly qualified, but apply for everthing for which you are qualified--Princeton, Big State U., Reginal State U., Tiny Sectarian College, communitiy colleges, FancyPants College, etc.)  Your job is to present yourself effectively as a candidate--it&#039;s the search committees&#039; jobs to decide if you warrant a second or third look.

That is:  don&#039;t do the search committee&#039;s job for them.  You really don&#039;t know what they&#039;re looking for, and neither do they until they see the range of applications.  You should be encouraged by all of the scholars here--many of whom are historians as well as people in many other disciplines--who think that Lou Marinoff&#039;s approach is bad faith, illegal, and just stupid, and are just as offended as you are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THE&#8211;I would never say never to an application.  You never know where it might lead, and if all you get out of it is an AHA interview, that is still valuable experience.  (Actually, I don&#8217;t think P-ton does AHA interviews!)</p>
<p>My advice is apply for everything that you can reasonably apply to.  (That is, don&#8217;t stretch yourself to apply for jobs for which you&#8217;re not exactly qualified, but apply for everthing for which you are qualified&#8211;Princeton, Big State U., Reginal State U., Tiny Sectarian College, communitiy colleges, FancyPants College, etc.)  Your job is to present yourself effectively as a candidate&#8211;it&#8217;s the search committees&#8217; jobs to decide if you warrant a second or third look.</p>
<p>That is:  don&#8217;t do the search committee&#8217;s job for them.  You really don&#8217;t know what they&#8217;re looking for, and neither do they until they see the range of applications.  You should be encouraged by all of the scholars here&#8211;many of whom are historians as well as people in many other disciplines&#8211;who think that Lou Marinoff&#8217;s approach is bad faith, illegal, and just stupid, and are just as offended as you are.</p>
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		<title>By: The History Enthusiast</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-426518</link>
		<dc:creator>The History Enthusiast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-426518</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Historiann, for clearly explaining the plethora of problems with this IHE article.  I had similar reactions myself and judging from the ensuing conversation here, it is nice to know I&#039;m not alone.

This is my first year on the job market, and I spoke with my advisor last week about whether or not I should even apply for a position at Princeton.  My thought is that, coming from a state school located west of the Appalachians, there really isn&#039;t much of a point.  He concurred.  My committee members all think that I have a solid CV, writing sample, etc., so it is discouraging to know that even a great record like mine (great, but not stellar) likely won&#039;t get me past the first round of eliminations.  This is especially true in the crappy market we have now thanks to the recession.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Historiann, for clearly explaining the plethora of problems with this IHE article.  I had similar reactions myself and judging from the ensuing conversation here, it is nice to know I&#8217;m not alone.</p>
<p>This is my first year on the job market, and I spoke with my advisor last week about whether or not I should even apply for a position at Princeton.  My thought is that, coming from a state school located west of the Appalachians, there really isn&#8217;t much of a point.  He concurred.  My committee members all think that I have a solid CV, writing sample, etc., so it is discouraging to know that even a great record like mine (great, but not stellar) likely won&#8217;t get me past the first round of eliminations.  This is especially true in the crappy market we have now thanks to the recession.</p>
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		<title>By: New Kid on the Hallway</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-426476</link>
		<dc:creator>New Kid on the Hallway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-426476</guid>
		<description>FWIW, I don&#039;t think class is actually a protected class. Legally speaking, affirmative action has no concern with class.

Because, of course, if you are a person of color whose perspective would benefit academia as a whole, you *must* have been &quot;good&quot; enough to get into an ivy and demonstrate your merit that way, right? right? :-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, I don&#8217;t think class is actually a protected class. Legally speaking, affirmative action has no concern with class.</p>
<p>Because, of course, if you are a person of color whose perspective would benefit academia as a whole, you *must* have been &#8220;good&#8221; enough to get into an ivy and demonstrate your merit that way, right? right? <img src='http://www.historiann.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':-P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-426469</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-426469</guid>
		<description>Ellie--that&#039;s interesting.  I think it&#039;s perfectly fair to hold off on asking for writing samples unless and until someone has made the initial cut.  There are a lot of people who apply for jobs who don&#039;t fit the job description, so why ask for their work when it&#039;s clearly tangential to the position advertised?  (Especially if you consider that a lot of &quot;assistant professors&quot; have books out--it seems burdensome to ask for a copy of someone&#039;s published book without having giving their application an initial vetting.)

It seems like a more reasonable use of faculty time to read the entire dossiers of 10-20 serious applicants who fit the job description.  (And in my experience as a job-seeker, unfortunately, I wonder whether anyone in an interviewing ever reads anything, including the cover letter!)

I want to stand up for the usefulness of job application letters, though.  I think it&#039;s a sign of a thoughtful and attentive person who gives us a letter that indicates ze 1) read the job description carefully, 2) took the time to explain to us in great detail why ze&#039;s the exact right person for the job, by 3) walking us through hir CV, showing us all the ways in which the only next logical step in hir career is to join our faculty.  People who are able and willing to do that honestly, and with real achievement on the CV to back it up, stand out for good reason in a job search.  I always read the cover letter first to see how the applicant explains hirself, without regard to institutions or letters of recommendations.  If someone can&#039;t explain hirself effectively in a letter of application, the supposed prestige of hir degrees or letters of recommendation don&#039;t do anything for me, as a search committee member.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ellie&#8211;that&#8217;s interesting.  I think it&#8217;s perfectly fair to hold off on asking for writing samples unless and until someone has made the initial cut.  There are a lot of people who apply for jobs who don&#8217;t fit the job description, so why ask for their work when it&#8217;s clearly tangential to the position advertised?  (Especially if you consider that a lot of &#8220;assistant professors&#8221; have books out&#8211;it seems burdensome to ask for a copy of someone&#8217;s published book without having giving their application an initial vetting.)</p>
<p>It seems like a more reasonable use of faculty time to read the entire dossiers of 10-20 serious applicants who fit the job description.  (And in my experience as a job-seeker, unfortunately, I wonder whether anyone in an interviewing ever reads anything, including the cover letter!)</p>
<p>I want to stand up for the usefulness of job application letters, though.  I think it&#8217;s a sign of a thoughtful and attentive person who gives us a letter that indicates ze 1) read the job description carefully, 2) took the time to explain to us in great detail why ze&#8217;s the exact right person for the job, by 3) walking us through hir CV, showing us all the ways in which the only next logical step in hir career is to join our faculty.  People who are able and willing to do that honestly, and with real achievement on the CV to back it up, stand out for good reason in a job search.  I always read the cover letter first to see how the applicant explains hirself, without regard to institutions or letters of recommendations.  If someone can&#8217;t explain hirself effectively in a letter of application, the supposed prestige of hir degrees or letters of recommendation don&#8217;t do anything for me, as a search committee member.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellie</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-426462</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-426462</guid>
		<description>In favor of the &quot;heavy&quot; initial job packet, it is certainly burdensome to the committee to read all those writing samples up front. But if the committee members are willing to do the work, it does seriously circumvent the old boys&#039;/prestige network. A good friend is in a department where every search committee reads every page of the major collected works (diss/books/articles) of every candidate, on the grounds that only that allows them to see the real quality of the candidates&#039; work, rather than get sucked in by snazzy cover letters from candidates who happen to come from elite departments with better professionalization support or glowing recommendations from big-name advisors. Candidates apparently complain, but what they don&#039;t know is that this department interviews many more candidates from outside the elite club than usual (degrees from less well-known schools, non-traditional educational paths, minorities and foreigners, etc.) and has been known to hire candidates who were really on the bubble in terms of the specific fields listed in the job ad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In favor of the &#8220;heavy&#8221; initial job packet, it is certainly burdensome to the committee to read all those writing samples up front. But if the committee members are willing to do the work, it does seriously circumvent the old boys&#8217;/prestige network. A good friend is in a department where every search committee reads every page of the major collected works (diss/books/articles) of every candidate, on the grounds that only that allows them to see the real quality of the candidates&#8217; work, rather than get sucked in by snazzy cover letters from candidates who happen to come from elite departments with better professionalization support or glowing recommendations from big-name advisors. Candidates apparently complain, but what they don&#8217;t know is that this department interviews many more candidates from outside the elite club than usual (degrees from less well-known schools, non-traditional educational paths, minorities and foreigners, etc.) and has been known to hire candidates who were really on the bubble in terms of the specific fields listed in the job ad.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-426429</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-426429</guid>
		<description>Yes, Paul--I&#039;ve worked with people (since retired, all nice guys) who were hired in this manner:

A department chair called up his advisor or another professor at his graduate institution (or an old grad school friend) and asked, &quot;who do you have coming along in X field?&quot;  Names were proffered, and invitations to apply for a job were issued.  It was all very non-competitive and clubby.

Although it&#039;s expensive and complicated and fraught, I much prefer the current system.  It&#039;s opened up employment to a much wider range of straight, white men than the old system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Paul&#8211;I&#8217;ve worked with people (since retired, all nice guys) who were hired in this manner:</p>
<p>A department chair called up his advisor or another professor at his graduate institution (or an old grad school friend) and asked, &#8220;who do you have coming along in X field?&#8221;  Names were proffered, and invitations to apply for a job were issued.  It was all very non-competitive and clubby.</p>
<p>Although it&#8217;s expensive and complicated and fraught, I much prefer the current system.  It&#8217;s opened up employment to a much wider range of straight, white men than the old system.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-426389</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-426389</guid>
		<description>Wasn&#039;t this the traditional way that hiring for senior positions in most fields - government, business, and professional, as well as academic - was done?  I picture the traditional elite hiring process as basically a checklist of what schools one went to, one&#039;s family connections, clubs one belonged to, etc. Only white men need apply, and only a fairly small percentage of those.  Some people who were not from an elite group would make it in, but it was an uphill struggle all the way. 

It makes sense that affirmative action was really designed to counteract this and open up higher positions to more than a tiny percentage of the population.  Unfortunately, a lot of people don&#039;t see it that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wasn&#8217;t this the traditional way that hiring for senior positions in most fields &#8211; government, business, and professional, as well as academic &#8211; was done?  I picture the traditional elite hiring process as basically a checklist of what schools one went to, one&#8217;s family connections, clubs one belonged to, etc. Only white men need apply, and only a fairly small percentage of those.  Some people who were not from an elite group would make it in, but it was an uphill struggle all the way. </p>
<p>It makes sense that affirmative action was really designed to counteract this and open up higher positions to more than a tiny percentage of the population.  Unfortunately, a lot of people don&#8217;t see it that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-425915</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-425915</guid>
		<description>Philosopher P:  I hear you.  I too wondered about the candor--but then, I suppose that&#039;s another perk of unexamined privilege, right?  &quot;I can tell you exactly what I did with the full confidence that my management of this search was totally and completely correct!&quot;

Janice--would you agree that the institution where a person trained tells us almost nothing about how that person will interview or what kind of a teacher, scholar, or colleague that person will be?  All of that comes down to personality, not institutional imprimatur, and personality is almost infinitely variable.  Maybe this is even less &quot;superscientific&quot; than the &quot;good university&quot; test, but I think I trust my gut more than the name-brand on the diploma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philosopher P:  I hear you.  I too wondered about the candor&#8211;but then, I suppose that&#8217;s another perk of unexamined privilege, right?  &#8220;I can tell you exactly what I did with the full confidence that my management of this search was totally and completely correct!&#8221;</p>
<p>Janice&#8211;would you agree that the institution where a person trained tells us almost nothing about how that person will interview or what kind of a teacher, scholar, or colleague that person will be?  All of that comes down to personality, not institutional imprimatur, and personality is almost infinitely variable.  Maybe this is even less &#8220;superscientific&#8221; than the &#8220;good university&#8221; test, but I think I trust my gut more than the name-brand on the diploma.</p>
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		<title>By: PhilosopherP</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/09/02/whats-a-good-university/comment-page-1/#comment-425663</link>
		<dc:creator>PhilosopherP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 00:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=7141#comment-425663</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not at all surprised by the article.  As a woman and a philosopher, it makes me ill -- but, I&#039;m used to that sensation.

This isn&#039;t just places like CCNY -- the philosophy job market is so terrible that even places IN Nebraska get to pick from a wide assortment of Ivy League Ph.Ds.  Of course, some of those departments get what they deserve as their golden boys use them for a while -- teaching poorly and writing a lot so they can get out of there.  The departments seem to keep hiring the type of person over and over again, so clearly they see no reason to change.

What did surprise me was the amount of candor in the IHE piece.  I&#039;m sure they&#039;ve broken a bunch of confidentiality rules and probably some hiring practice guidelines... I&#039;d never admit it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not at all surprised by the article.  As a woman and a philosopher, it makes me ill &#8212; but, I&#8217;m used to that sensation.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t just places like CCNY &#8212; the philosophy job market is so terrible that even places IN Nebraska get to pick from a wide assortment of Ivy League Ph.Ds.  Of course, some of those departments get what they deserve as their golden boys use them for a while &#8212; teaching poorly and writing a lot so they can get out of there.  The departments seem to keep hiring the type of person over and over again, so clearly they see no reason to change.</p>
<p>What did surprise me was the amount of candor in the IHE piece.  I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;ve broken a bunch of confidentiality rules and probably some hiring practice guidelines&#8230; I&#8217;d never admit it.</p>
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