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	<title>Comments on: Tales of money, gender, and the ruling class:  Nantucket, 1994</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-411977</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-411977</guid>
		<description>Thanks, everyone, for carrying on the discussion yesterday while I was out.  Vance Maverick&#039;s scheme for the federal government to subsidize the employment of 2.5 million early child care workers was proposed by a group of women&#039;s historians late last year, when we signed a letter to President-elect Obama pointing out that stimulus-spending shouldn&#039;t just go to sectors of the economy that traditionally employ many more men than women (construction, etc.)  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/12/actual-progress-for-the-new-obama-wpa/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;See here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/18/feminist-historians-for-a-new-new-deal-update/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here for more details&lt;/a&gt;.

But, I&#039;m not holding my breath!  The Obama administration and its new Sec&#039;y of Education is totally on board the testing regime laid down by George W. Bush.  How on earth can they hold early childhood educators &quot;accountable&quot; for their work when we can&#039;t possibly test their students?  (And Lord help us if they figure out a way to start testing 2-year olds!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, everyone, for carrying on the discussion yesterday while I was out.  Vance Maverick&#8217;s scheme for the federal government to subsidize the employment of 2.5 million early child care workers was proposed by a group of women&#8217;s historians late last year, when we signed a letter to President-elect Obama pointing out that stimulus-spending shouldn&#8217;t just go to sectors of the economy that traditionally employ many more men than women (construction, etc.)  <a href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/12/actual-progress-for-the-new-obama-wpa/" rel="nofollow">See here</a> and <a href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/18/feminist-historians-for-a-new-new-deal-update/" rel="nofollow">here for more details</a>.</p>
<p>But, I&#8217;m not holding my breath!  The Obama administration and its new Sec&#8217;y of Education is totally on board the testing regime laid down by George W. Bush.  How on earth can they hold early childhood educators &#8220;accountable&#8221; for their work when we can&#8217;t possibly test their students?  (And Lord help us if they figure out a way to start testing 2-year olds!)</p>
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		<title>By: J.A.</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-411555</link>
		<dc:creator>J.A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 05:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-411555</guid>
		<description>&quot;Historiann said, “But, you’re leaving out a third group of victims of this system: as Lalaroo points out, if caring for young children is successfully de-skilled, de-professionalized, and underpaid, that also works against the dignity and value of mothers who are doing their own child care.”

I can to speak to that one:    We Stay-at-home moms take a serious hit to our self-esteem by staying out of the workforce. Because I stay at home, it is assumed, by men and women alike, I am unskilled and uneducated. It&#039;s hard not to let those ideas affect me: I sometimes wonder why I bothered with the Masters degree if raising kids, doing errands, and cleaning was what I&#039;d be doing with my life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Historiann said, “But, you’re leaving out a third group of victims of this system: as Lalaroo points out, if caring for young children is successfully de-skilled, de-professionalized, and underpaid, that also works against the dignity and value of mothers who are doing their own child care.”</p>
<p>I can to speak to that one:    We Stay-at-home moms take a serious hit to our self-esteem by staying out of the workforce. Because I stay at home, it is assumed, by men and women alike, I am unskilled and uneducated. It&#8217;s hard not to let those ideas affect me: I sometimes wonder why I bothered with the Masters degree if raising kids, doing errands, and cleaning was what I&#8217;d be doing with my life?</p>
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		<title>By: Vance Maverick</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-411366</link>
		<dc:creator>Vance Maverick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 01:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-411366</guid>
		<description>Googling various figures, it seems we have about 20 million kids under 5 in the US.  Guessing that universal daycare would have to accommodate about half of them, that&#039;s 10 million; and guessing at the adult/child ratios, that suggests the hiring of 2.5 million daycare personnel.  For comparison, there are about 8.5 million teachers (and I&#039;m pretty sure this means primary/middle/secondary) in the US now.  So considering this proposal as an extension of the mandate for public education, it&#039;s an increase of about a third.

This is (a) substantial and (b) doable. In fact, decent government jobs for 2.5 million people sounds like the kind of stimulus we could use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Googling various figures, it seems we have about 20 million kids under 5 in the US.  Guessing that universal daycare would have to accommodate about half of them, that&#8217;s 10 million; and guessing at the adult/child ratios, that suggests the hiring of 2.5 million daycare personnel.  For comparison, there are about 8.5 million teachers (and I&#8217;m pretty sure this means primary/middle/secondary) in the US now.  So considering this proposal as an extension of the mandate for public education, it&#8217;s an increase of about a third.</p>
<p>This is (a) substantial and (b) doable. In fact, decent government jobs for 2.5 million people sounds like the kind of stimulus we could use.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-410985</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-410985</guid>
		<description>Historiann said, &quot;But, you’re leaving out a third group of victims of this system: as Lalaroo points out, if caring for young children is successfully de-skilled, de-professionalized, and underpaid, that also works against the dignity and value of mothers who are doing their own child care.&quot;

True!  That makes me wonder if some of this is also a part of the problems between the general groups of Working Mothers and Stay-at-home Mothers.  Maybe some SAHMs feel they need to defend their positions and therefore pick on the working moms for choosing to work and letting someone else take care of their children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann said, &#8220;But, you’re leaving out a third group of victims of this system: as Lalaroo points out, if caring for young children is successfully de-skilled, de-professionalized, and underpaid, that also works against the dignity and value of mothers who are doing their own child care.&#8221;</p>
<p>True!  That makes me wonder if some of this is also a part of the problems between the general groups of Working Mothers and Stay-at-home Mothers.  Maybe some SAHMs feel they need to defend their positions and therefore pick on the working moms for choosing to work and letting someone else take care of their children.</p>
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		<title>By: Lalaroo</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-410980</link>
		<dc:creator>Lalaroo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-410980</guid>
		<description>Oh, and I totally agree that we should have more government subsidized daycare. I know that it&#039;s hard to afford it on a middle-class salary (forget lower-class!). I know that we already have Head Start programs, which could be expanded. But how would government subsidize the daycare otherwise? Tax credits?

It is rather neatly done that women are paid less and socialized towards mothering, then daycare is expensive for the babies they have, and so when looking at who should stay home (since daycare is costing almost a full salary), of course it&#039;s the mom. It makes financial and psychological sense, you know? She earns less and would be better with the babies. It&#039;s not like there have been social factors at work since her birth to ensure that both are true (or at least, that the second is believed to be true)! So, mothers are not-so-gently nudged toward staying home. Way to go, big P!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and I totally agree that we should have more government subsidized daycare. I know that it&#8217;s hard to afford it on a middle-class salary (forget lower-class!). I know that we already have Head Start programs, which could be expanded. But how would government subsidize the daycare otherwise? Tax credits?</p>
<p>It is rather neatly done that women are paid less and socialized towards mothering, then daycare is expensive for the babies they have, and so when looking at who should stay home (since daycare is costing almost a full salary), of course it&#8217;s the mom. It makes financial and psychological sense, you know? She earns less and would be better with the babies. It&#8217;s not like there have been social factors at work since her birth to ensure that both are true (or at least, that the second is believed to be true)! So, mothers are not-so-gently nudged toward staying home. Way to go, big P!</p>
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		<title>By: Lalaroo</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-410978</link>
		<dc:creator>Lalaroo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-410978</guid>
		<description>Kathleen, I&#039;m not sure that childcare is considered &quot;fun&quot; so much as it&#039;s considered easy and unskilled. The parents very much want you to think it&#039;s fun, and your boss wants you to at least act like it&#039;s fun, but sometimes it&#039;s not.

Vance, here in my state, infants are required to have a 1:4 ratio, 7 mo-1 yr is 1:5, 1 - 3 yrs is 1:6, but then when you get into pre-K it&#039;s 1:13! So the real money is in pre-K, where you can have a bunch of kids with just one teacher. My daycare is new, however, and so our pre-K (where I work) is tiny - just 4 kids, and 2 of those come only T/Th. Before we added a fourth kid, this meant that if the one little girl was sick, two of us teachers didn&#039;t get paid that day. But her mom still had to pay for that day, even though she didn&#039;t come - extra money for the daycare!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kathleen, I&#8217;m not sure that childcare is considered &#8220;fun&#8221; so much as it&#8217;s considered easy and unskilled. The parents very much want you to think it&#8217;s fun, and your boss wants you to at least act like it&#8217;s fun, but sometimes it&#8217;s not.</p>
<p>Vance, here in my state, infants are required to have a 1:4 ratio, 7 mo-1 yr is 1:5, 1 &#8211; 3 yrs is 1:6, but then when you get into pre-K it&#8217;s 1:13! So the real money is in pre-K, where you can have a bunch of kids with just one teacher. My daycare is new, however, and so our pre-K (where I work) is tiny &#8211; just 4 kids, and 2 of those come only T/Th. Before we added a fourth kid, this meant that if the one little girl was sick, two of us teachers didn&#8217;t get paid that day. But her mom still had to pay for that day, even though she didn&#8217;t come &#8211; extra money for the daycare!</p>
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		<title>By: perpetua</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-410971</link>
		<dc:creator>perpetua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-410971</guid>
		<description>@ Feminist Avatar: I&#039;m not sure.  I agree that as a society we don&#039;t prize or privilege investing in our children (in terms of family leave, day care, etc), but in other ways we are hyper-investing, if one thinks about the vast quantity of material objects with which today&#039;s children are showered. 

And honestly, as far as the daycare/preschool industry is concerned - there&#039;s just no profit in it, due to the limited salaried of most working and middle class people combined with (necessary)regulations on the child:adult ratio.  In industries with small profit margins, exploitation of workers run rampant as employers/owners try to wring every last cent where they can (ie limiting benefits and slashing salaries).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Feminist Avatar: I&#8217;m not sure.  I agree that as a society we don&#8217;t prize or privilege investing in our children (in terms of family leave, day care, etc), but in other ways we are hyper-investing, if one thinks about the vast quantity of material objects with which today&#8217;s children are showered. </p>
<p>And honestly, as far as the daycare/preschool industry is concerned &#8211; there&#8217;s just no profit in it, due to the limited salaried of most working and middle class people combined with (necessary)regulations on the child:adult ratio.  In industries with small profit margins, exploitation of workers run rampant as employers/owners try to wring every last cent where they can (ie limiting benefits and slashing salaries).</p>
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		<title>By: Kathleen Lowrey</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-410969</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathleen Lowrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-410969</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure the idea that caring for kids is &quot;fun&quot; is a key to the low wages.  When my great-grandmother was in a nursing home, the admins raked it in and the black and/or immigrant workers who actually took care of her earned not a whole lot over minimum wage.  From what I have read (not in a studied way, I mean, just reading the paper etc.) eldercare like childcare is a field in which there is a lot of this, plus quite a lot of under the table arrangements, all very ill-paid.

I think the key here is that this is more women&#039;s work, and thus ill compensated.  A reason I think there isn&#039;t more organizing around it is that the &quot;workplace&quot; is not a factory floor but a bunch of disconnected sites, at which isolated and vulnerable people are laboring; I also suspect that unlike being an electrician or whatever many people who work in childcare or eldercare think of it as temporary (whether it turns out to be or not).  Finally, I think a lot of women who do have the social status to organize (ie, the ones dealing with contracting childcare and eldercare under the present unjust circumstances) hesitate to do so knowing they&#039;ll be targets of so much hate: bitches who think they are too good to care for their own kids and elderly relatives, agitating for the government to pay for it instead, what a bunch of selfish ice princesses, etc. etc.  I mean, the standard American insane denial thing where rather than facing up to life as it is actually lived we pretend it&#039;s not that way and shoot the messenger who mentions it (cf. abortion) (cf. healthcare). *Even though* facing up to life as it is actually lived would be better for everyone, not just some elitist minority.  Result?  Women live the contradictions but pretend they don&#039;t exist so as not to get hated on or physically threatened for mentioning them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure the idea that caring for kids is &#8220;fun&#8221; is a key to the low wages.  When my great-grandmother was in a nursing home, the admins raked it in and the black and/or immigrant workers who actually took care of her earned not a whole lot over minimum wage.  From what I have read (not in a studied way, I mean, just reading the paper etc.) eldercare like childcare is a field in which there is a lot of this, plus quite a lot of under the table arrangements, all very ill-paid.</p>
<p>I think the key here is that this is more women&#8217;s work, and thus ill compensated.  A reason I think there isn&#8217;t more organizing around it is that the &#8220;workplace&#8221; is not a factory floor but a bunch of disconnected sites, at which isolated and vulnerable people are laboring; I also suspect that unlike being an electrician or whatever many people who work in childcare or eldercare think of it as temporary (whether it turns out to be or not).  Finally, I think a lot of women who do have the social status to organize (ie, the ones dealing with contracting childcare and eldercare under the present unjust circumstances) hesitate to do so knowing they&#8217;ll be targets of so much hate: bitches who think they are too good to care for their own kids and elderly relatives, agitating for the government to pay for it instead, what a bunch of selfish ice princesses, etc. etc.  I mean, the standard American insane denial thing where rather than facing up to life as it is actually lived we pretend it&#8217;s not that way and shoot the messenger who mentions it (cf. abortion) (cf. healthcare). *Even though* facing up to life as it is actually lived would be better for everyone, not just some elitist minority.  Result?  Women live the contradictions but pretend they don&#8217;t exist so as not to get hated on or physically threatened for mentioning them.</p>
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		<title>By: Feminist Avatar</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-410963</link>
		<dc:creator>Feminist Avatar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-410963</guid>
		<description>I blame the rise of individualism, over that of family orientated conceptions of self, which had meant investing in our children is seen to have less value to us as individuals. We (society) are no longer investing in families or family dynasties (or even in society in the long run), but in individuals and their much shorter-term successes (frequently measured by financial wealth). This is not to say that parents don&#039;t make sacrifices for their children, but I do think at some level it makes us resent expending large amounts of what we consider their basic needs- because it detracts from our successes (whereas for the rich, large expenditure in our children marks our status). Which, you&#039;d think would make us all socialist Nazis- but for many people it makes us more selfish as we buy into the &#039;do-it-alone&#039; narrative. 

I also think that modern individualism is still uncomfortable with the idea that women and children are individuals (by which I mean independent agents with full rights), but that&#039;s anothe story...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I blame the rise of individualism, over that of family orientated conceptions of self, which had meant investing in our children is seen to have less value to us as individuals. We (society) are no longer investing in families or family dynasties (or even in society in the long run), but in individuals and their much shorter-term successes (frequently measured by financial wealth). This is not to say that parents don&#8217;t make sacrifices for their children, but I do think at some level it makes us resent expending large amounts of what we consider their basic needs- because it detracts from our successes (whereas for the rich, large expenditure in our children marks our status). Which, you&#8217;d think would make us all socialist Nazis- but for many people it makes us more selfish as we buy into the &#8216;do-it-alone&#8217; narrative. </p>
<p>I also think that modern individualism is still uncomfortable with the idea that women and children are individuals (by which I mean independent agents with full rights), but that&#8217;s anothe story&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/21/tales-of-money-gender-and-the-ruling-class-nantucket-1994/comment-page-1/#comment-410881</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6979#comment-410881</guid>
		<description>takingitoutside--good points.  Quality preschools and day care centers spend a lot of money on having appealing facilities, and they pay for all of that plus provide the other legal and tax infrastructure to provide these services.  You are exactly correct to say that it &quot;[k]ind of reminds me of healthcare; you can’t just raise provider rates and fix everything, you have to fix the entire system.&quot;

What progressives in congress, with its historic democratic majorities and a Dem president, have proposed to offer free universal preschool or daycare?  None that I have heard of.  Shrinkage of the agenda, again...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>takingitoutside&#8211;good points.  Quality preschools and day care centers spend a lot of money on having appealing facilities, and they pay for all of that plus provide the other legal and tax infrastructure to provide these services.  You are exactly correct to say that it &#8220;[k]ind of reminds me of healthcare; you can’t just raise provider rates and fix everything, you have to fix the entire system.&#8221;</p>
<p>What progressives in congress, with its historic democratic majorities and a Dem president, have proposed to offer free universal preschool or daycare?  None that I have heard of.  Shrinkage of the agenda, again&#8230;</p>
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