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	<title>Comments on: Wait a minute, Mr. Postman, look and see&#8211;is there a nightmare in your bag for me?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-411983</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-411983</guid>
		<description>AndrewMc--good point.  I think you&#039;re right that the briefest letters of rec. I have read have been from &quot;big names,&quot; but in general, the way that people get to be &quot;big names&quot; is that they do right by their students.  

bix--I wonder if the linked article in this post will be of any assistance in getting your recommenders to write U.S.-style letters of recommendation?  It strikes me that if you really think the rec. letters you have on file aren&#039;t helpful and you really want to return to the U.S., you will have to do some &quot;mentoring of your mentors.&quot;

For the record:  I generally ignore those dumb percentile rankings, and instead write a descriptive letter that attempts to bring the applicant to life.  I think my department&#039;s evaluation form for our grad program has those percentile charts, but we generally ignore it.  (I think it&#039;s something the grad school requires.)  I wonder if this is a science versus humanities split?  Maybe scientists (including social scientists) actually use those things, whereas I don&#039;t know a single History professor who gives a crap about checking boxes versus the qualtitative information in a letter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AndrewMc&#8211;good point.  I think you&#8217;re right that the briefest letters of rec. I have read have been from &#8220;big names,&#8221; but in general, the way that people get to be &#8220;big names&#8221; is that they do right by their students.  </p>
<p>bix&#8211;I wonder if the linked article in this post will be of any assistance in getting your recommenders to write U.S.-style letters of recommendation?  It strikes me that if you really think the rec. letters you have on file aren&#8217;t helpful and you really want to return to the U.S., you will have to do some &#8220;mentoring of your mentors.&#8221;</p>
<p>For the record:  I generally ignore those dumb percentile rankings, and instead write a descriptive letter that attempts to bring the applicant to life.  I think my department&#8217;s evaluation form for our grad program has those percentile charts, but we generally ignore it.  (I think it&#8217;s something the grad school requires.)  I wonder if this is a science versus humanities split?  Maybe scientists (including social scientists) actually use those things, whereas I don&#8217;t know a single History professor who gives a crap about checking boxes versus the qualtitative information in a letter.</p>
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		<title>By: AndrewMc</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-411961</link>
		<dc:creator>AndrewMc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-411961</guid>
		<description>I have found that senior historians tend to write the worst recommendation letters. They seem to have a template, and often forget to change key facts. It&#039;s as if they are convinced that simply by having their name on the letter, that particular applicant will be vaulted to the top of the list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have found that senior historians tend to write the worst recommendation letters. They seem to have a template, and often forget to change key facts. It&#8217;s as if they are convinced that simply by having their name on the letter, that particular applicant will be vaulted to the top of the list.</p>
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		<title>By: bix</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-409311</link>
		<dc:creator>bix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-409311</guid>
		<description>There are certainly different schools of thought about how best to write a recommendation.  

I&#039;m an American, but a PhD student at the University of Oxford in the UK.  I want to get a job in the US but, though it&#039;s what I really want, I sincerely doubt that it will be an academic job just because of the differences between the two systems.  This was recently hammered home to me when I applied for an NSF grant for some fieldwork (I study geochronological methods in archaeology) and was asked to re-submit this coming year.  The comments from my reviewers were uniformly that because my supervisors were not familiar with the US system, they were unable to write me the kind of recommendations that they were looking for.  I remember one of my supervisors being baffled by the form from the NSF asking him to place me a percentage of students he&#039;s taught over the years... it struck him as a completely subjective exercise and didn&#039;t understand how it could be used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are certainly different schools of thought about how best to write a recommendation.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m an American, but a PhD student at the University of Oxford in the UK.  I want to get a job in the US but, though it&#8217;s what I really want, I sincerely doubt that it will be an academic job just because of the differences between the two systems.  This was recently hammered home to me when I applied for an NSF grant for some fieldwork (I study geochronological methods in archaeology) and was asked to re-submit this coming year.  The comments from my reviewers were uniformly that because my supervisors were not familiar with the US system, they were unable to write me the kind of recommendations that they were looking for.  I remember one of my supervisors being baffled by the form from the NSF asking him to place me a percentage of students he&#8217;s taught over the years&#8230; it struck him as a completely subjective exercise and didn&#8217;t understand how it could be used.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-409098</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-409098</guid>
		<description>Digger--I think your instincts are right, but keep in mind Ruth&#039;s warning.  Two out of three letters should come from academics, but it&#039;s fine and appropriate to have a letter from a boss or co-worker, especially since it sounds like your company is familiar with academe (with so many former coworkers who have returned to grad school.)  Getting in touch with these folks sounds like a good idea--you can find out whether they had someone from the company write on their behalf, and how that went.

What about getting a co-worker who left for grad school to write a letter on your behalf?  That person would be in a good position to assess your ability to do the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Digger&#8211;I think your instincts are right, but keep in mind Ruth&#8217;s warning.  Two out of three letters should come from academics, but it&#8217;s fine and appropriate to have a letter from a boss or co-worker, especially since it sounds like your company is familiar with academe (with so many former coworkers who have returned to grad school.)  Getting in touch with these folks sounds like a good idea&#8211;you can find out whether they had someone from the company write on their behalf, and how that went.</p>
<p>What about getting a co-worker who left for grad school to write a letter on your behalf?  That person would be in a good position to assess your ability to do the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Digger</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-409096</link>
		<dc:creator>Digger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-409096</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the tips; I may approach others who left the company I work for to do their PhDs, and ask how that went over. It&#039;d be nice, I think, to have letters reflecting school, work, and teaching... but perhaps that&#039;s not what the admissions committee gives a crap about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the tips; I may approach others who left the company I work for to do their PhDs, and ask how that went over. It&#8217;d be nice, I think, to have letters reflecting school, work, and teaching&#8230; but perhaps that&#8217;s not what the admissions committee gives a crap about?</p>
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		<title>By: Ruth</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-409095</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-409095</guid>
		<description>The benefit you get from having someone from your current job write for you may not be worth the risk; the kinds of letters people write in the business world are often not very useful in grad admissions.  Here&#039;s what our department FAQ says:

The department looks for intellectual ability and promise as well as background in the particular subject area. The letters and writing sample that best display that ability and promise are the best ones to send.  If you weren’t a history major (or even if you were!) it’s a good idea for your personal essay to demonstrate that you know what the study of history entails and that you have sound intellectual reasons for wanting to do it.   Recommendations from professors who have taught you often do a better job of speaking to your potential as a historian than recommendations from employers outside academia, even if the latter are warm and positive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The benefit you get from having someone from your current job write for you may not be worth the risk; the kinds of letters people write in the business world are often not very useful in grad admissions.  Here&#8217;s what our department FAQ says:</p>
<p>The department looks for intellectual ability and promise as well as background in the particular subject area. The letters and writing sample that best display that ability and promise are the best ones to send.  If you weren’t a history major (or even if you were!) it’s a good idea for your personal essay to demonstrate that you know what the study of history entails and that you have sound intellectual reasons for wanting to do it.   Recommendations from professors who have taught you often do a better job of speaking to your potential as a historian than recommendations from employers outside academia, even if the latter are warm and positive.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-409085</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-409085</guid>
		<description>Ruth and Sharon--thanks for your thoughts here.  I think your policies are generous and humane (not to mention honest!)  Sharon, I really like the idea of vetting your students&#039; letters--brillian!

Cassandra, I&#039;m sorry (but not surprised) that you&#039;ve felt so marginalized in your work environments.  But in my department at Baa Ram U., all of our adjuncts are observed annually in class by a regular faculty member, who writes a letter evaluating their teaching.  And although I certainly think that we could do a *much* better job of making our adjuncts feel a part of the community, I know that I and other regular faculty have had coffee with adjuncts, have reached out to adjuncts with similar research interests, and we have written letters of recommendation for our adjuncts, and many have jumped to tenure-track jobs.  

In any case, I think my advice to Digger (or anyone else looking to return to grad school) is sound, in that while it may be up to her to initiate contacts for more of a collaborative/collegial relationship, it&#039;s worth a shot, especially since that&#039;s the academic environment she&#039;s working in now.  I hear you, Digger, about wondering whether that letter from a current boss or colleague in your day job is worth the risk.  I wonder:  is there someone else you worked with in your M.A. program who might write on your behalf, other than your advisor?  Did you work as a T.A. for another faculty member, or did you do particularly well in a class with someone else?  I&#039;m just brainstorming to help you get up to that magic number of 3 rec. letters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ruth and Sharon&#8211;thanks for your thoughts here.  I think your policies are generous and humane (not to mention honest!)  Sharon, I really like the idea of vetting your students&#8217; letters&#8211;brillian!</p>
<p>Cassandra, I&#8217;m sorry (but not surprised) that you&#8217;ve felt so marginalized in your work environments.  But in my department at Baa Ram U., all of our adjuncts are observed annually in class by a regular faculty member, who writes a letter evaluating their teaching.  And although I certainly think that we could do a *much* better job of making our adjuncts feel a part of the community, I know that I and other regular faculty have had coffee with adjuncts, have reached out to adjuncts with similar research interests, and we have written letters of recommendation for our adjuncts, and many have jumped to tenure-track jobs.  </p>
<p>In any case, I think my advice to Digger (or anyone else looking to return to grad school) is sound, in that while it may be up to her to initiate contacts for more of a collaborative/collegial relationship, it&#8217;s worth a shot, especially since that&#8217;s the academic environment she&#8217;s working in now.  I hear you, Digger, about wondering whether that letter from a current boss or colleague in your day job is worth the risk.  I wonder:  is there someone else you worked with in your M.A. program who might write on your behalf, other than your advisor?  Did you work as a T.A. for another faculty member, or did you do particularly well in a class with someone else?  I&#8217;m just brainstorming to help you get up to that magic number of 3 rec. letters.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruth</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-408993</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-408993</guid>
		<description>I also put a generic letter on file in my students&#039; dossiers for emergencies, but prefer to write individual letters tailored for each job.  The student gives me a spreadsheet with a list of the schools, addresses, job descriptions, and due dates, which they update periodically, and I highlight the ones I&#039;ve completed and send it back to the student so they know it&#039;s done and can remind me if it&#039;s not.  This also helps me write appropriate letters if more than one student is applying for the same job.  They all have different strengths and I don&#039;t want to second-guess the committees--let them choose which one(s) they want to interview.  

Normally when more than one student is applying for the same job I try top make both letters as strong as possible.  However, sometimes one student fits the written description better than another--ad lists a preference for a specific subfield in which one student works, or job is at a SLAC and one student has SLAC teaching experience.  In that case, I tell Joe up front:  &quot;I&#039;m going to write in Jane&#039;s letter how good a fit she is for this particular job, and I won&#039;t be able to say that in yours.&quot;  But I will still write a strong letter for Joe, and maybe the committee will decide that his enthusiasm for teaching and innovative syllabi outweigh the fact that he doesn&#039;t have SLAC experience.  Let them decide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also put a generic letter on file in my students&#8217; dossiers for emergencies, but prefer to write individual letters tailored for each job.  The student gives me a spreadsheet with a list of the schools, addresses, job descriptions, and due dates, which they update periodically, and I highlight the ones I&#8217;ve completed and send it back to the student so they know it&#8217;s done and can remind me if it&#8217;s not.  This also helps me write appropriate letters if more than one student is applying for the same job.  They all have different strengths and I don&#8217;t want to second-guess the committees&#8211;let them choose which one(s) they want to interview.  </p>
<p>Normally when more than one student is applying for the same job I try top make both letters as strong as possible.  However, sometimes one student fits the written description better than another&#8211;ad lists a preference for a specific subfield in which one student works, or job is at a SLAC and one student has SLAC teaching experience.  In that case, I tell Joe up front:  &#8220;I&#8217;m going to write in Jane&#8217;s letter how good a fit she is for this particular job, and I won&#8217;t be able to say that in yours.&#8221;  But I will still write a strong letter for Joe, and maybe the committee will decide that his enthusiasm for teaching and innovative syllabi outweigh the fact that he doesn&#8217;t have SLAC experience.  Let them decide.</p>
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		<title>By: Digger</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-408948</link>
		<dc:creator>Digger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-408948</guid>
		<description>The dept I adjunct in is actually very welcoming and supportive of their adjuncts, and there is someone there I will approach for a letter. I was observed once, near the beginning. Teaching evenings is kind of weird though; I&#039;m one of the ghosts the regular faculty and staff never see, but who cleans out her mailbox and cashes her paychecks on a regular basis. I&#039;m working on more visibility, but it&#039;s hard with a regular job. That third letter though.... Thought about asking at work, but I&#039;m not certain announcing my intentions to jump ship a year before the jump, in this economy, is necessarily wise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The dept I adjunct in is actually very welcoming and supportive of their adjuncts, and there is someone there I will approach for a letter. I was observed once, near the beginning. Teaching evenings is kind of weird though; I&#8217;m one of the ghosts the regular faculty and staff never see, but who cleans out her mailbox and cashes her paychecks on a regular basis. I&#8217;m working on more visibility, but it&#8217;s hard with a regular job. That third letter though&#8230;. Thought about asking at work, but I&#8217;m not certain announcing my intentions to jump ship a year before the jump, in this economy, is necessarily wise.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaz</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/08/19/wait-a-minute-mr-postman-look-and-see-is-there-a-nightmare-in-your-bag-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-408845</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 06:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6943#comment-408845</guid>
		<description>I suggest that my grad students have their letters sent to the career center, and give me permission to look at them.  I will honestly recommend if any should not be sent out.  I have also taken to sending students copies of my letter -- if they want it.  Some just don&#039;t want to see it and that&#039;s fine too.

I will also give advice to students on who to ask for letters -- I have some lovely colleagues who do the minimum on rec letters.  

There has been an array of research on the implicit bias in letters for women v. men.  Women as students, men as scholars, women has having potential, men as rising stars.  Not to mention race: I&#039;ve seen letters completely inappropriately referring to a candidate.  The most notorious: a renowned scholar talking about a candidate as &quot;the best black student I have ever taught.&quot;  Uh, thanks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suggest that my grad students have their letters sent to the career center, and give me permission to look at them.  I will honestly recommend if any should not be sent out.  I have also taken to sending students copies of my letter &#8212; if they want it.  Some just don&#8217;t want to see it and that&#8217;s fine too.</p>
<p>I will also give advice to students on who to ask for letters &#8212; I have some lovely colleagues who do the minimum on rec letters.  </p>
<p>There has been an array of research on the implicit bias in letters for women v. men.  Women as students, men as scholars, women has having potential, men as rising stars.  Not to mention race: I&#8217;ve seen letters completely inappropriately referring to a candidate.  The most notorious: a renowned scholar talking about a candidate as &#8220;the best black student I have ever taught.&#8221;  Uh, thanks?</p>
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