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	<title>Comments on: Dr. Str!pper T!ts, I presume?</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-374021</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-374021</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m coming to this very late, but I just want to share a particularly absurd example of how cosmetic surgery is overwhelmingly aimed at women and not men. Facebook keeps showing me ads for Make Yourself Amazing (a cosmetic surgery company) featuring pictures of young, skinny, breast-enhanced women. Why? Facebook and its advertisers know all too well from my profile info that I&#039;m male and single (because they also keep giving me ads for dating sites where I can supposedly meet girls, including the very dodgy looking SugarDaddy.com). Are they saying that once I&#039;ve found a girlfriend through the dating sites I have to pressure her into having breast enlargement otherwise she won&#039;t be amazing enough? MYA does also offer surgery for men but it&#039;s much less prominently displayed on their site and in its own male section on the sidebar, so all the other treatments must be seen as female by default.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m coming to this very late, but I just want to share a particularly absurd example of how cosmetic surgery is overwhelmingly aimed at women and not men. Facebook keeps showing me ads for Make Yourself Amazing (a cosmetic surgery company) featuring pictures of young, skinny, breast-enhanced women. Why? Facebook and its advertisers know all too well from my profile info that I&#8217;m male and single (because they also keep giving me ads for dating sites where I can supposedly meet girls, including the very dodgy looking SugarDaddy.com). Are they saying that once I&#8217;ve found a girlfriend through the dating sites I have to pressure her into having breast enlargement otherwise she won&#8217;t be amazing enough? MYA does also offer surgery for men but it&#8217;s much less prominently displayed on their site and in its own male section on the sidebar, so all the other treatments must be seen as female by default.</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-361905</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-361905</guid>
		<description>PS a friend in the corporate world, a man my age, says LOTS of people, male and female, in his circles get cosmetic stuff done to look better / younger / and so on.

He says it&#039;s like this: when you&#039;re younger you just trim your hair and if you&#039;re a shaver, shave, and you look fine.

When you&#039;re older, it takes a little more not to look raggedy. And that&#039;s all there is to it, he says.

Again, I am not saying it&#039;s good, I&#039;m just saying I am not willing to NOT do it just to live up to an ideal of non body modification that feels as oppressive as the idea that one should want *more* body modification. 

And finally -- remember I would not have dreamed of saying any of this 10 or 15 years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS a friend in the corporate world, a man my age, says LOTS of people, male and female, in his circles get cosmetic stuff done to look better / younger / and so on.</p>
<p>He says it&#8217;s like this: when you&#8217;re younger you just trim your hair and if you&#8217;re a shaver, shave, and you look fine.</p>
<p>When you&#8217;re older, it takes a little more not to look raggedy. And that&#8217;s all there is to it, he says.</p>
<p>Again, I am not saying it&#8217;s good, I&#8217;m just saying I am not willing to NOT do it just to live up to an ideal of non body modification that feels as oppressive as the idea that one should want *more* body modification. </p>
<p>And finally &#8212; remember I would not have dreamed of saying any of this 10 or 15 years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-361901</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-361901</guid>
		<description>Good point, Smilegirl!

I say do what one must -- we&#039;re all so conditioned anyway. I&#039;m a standard size and stuff so I don&#039;t know what it would feel like not to be. But if there were surgery to be taller, I&#039;d get it I think. Used to be more fixated on that until they started making jeans in short versions, so that now I can pick up something I don&#039;t have to hem or otherwise alter (or wear men&#039;s jeans, which is OK but women&#039;s fit better).

So, given that, I see why people want surgery.

I&#039;ve dyed my hair since before it was grey -- it had gotten mousy brown and was boring; manicures and pedicures whenever I can afford it; pierced ears; had spider veins zapped away and it was worth it; would do restylane (plan to, actually), would do laser hair removal in a flash. 

I can see what gravity is starting to subtly do to my face (cheeks just starting to turn to jowls) and see the value a facelift will have in time, FEAR it, don&#039;t WANT to do it, but know I&#039;d like the results (doubt I&#039;ll want to spend the cash though). I did get my teeth whitened.

Also, two of my teeth don&#039;t match, they are caps I got at 14 and they don&#039;t exactly match the others in color. I used to not care but I see it now ages me. I&#039;d redo it in a flash but the dentist says it&#039;s so well done and so non worn out that he doesn&#039;t recommend a change.

I suppose all of this is very patriarchal but what can I do? I wouldn&#039;t mind how I look, I actually look quite well for 50, but I haven&#039;t accomplished much yet in life
and I want the time back. Also, I can&#039;t ever afford to retire, have long life expectancy (all women in my family live well to 100) and I might want to go back to school and get a new career, which would mean an entry level job. Capitalism requires I continue to give off a youthful air and I can and so I will.

I am not saying this is good or anything, I am just saying it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Smilegirl!</p>
<p>I say do what one must &#8212; we&#8217;re all so conditioned anyway. I&#8217;m a standard size and stuff so I don&#8217;t know what it would feel like not to be. But if there were surgery to be taller, I&#8217;d get it I think. Used to be more fixated on that until they started making jeans in short versions, so that now I can pick up something I don&#8217;t have to hem or otherwise alter (or wear men&#8217;s jeans, which is OK but women&#8217;s fit better).</p>
<p>So, given that, I see why people want surgery.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve dyed my hair since before it was grey &#8212; it had gotten mousy brown and was boring; manicures and pedicures whenever I can afford it; pierced ears; had spider veins zapped away and it was worth it; would do restylane (plan to, actually), would do laser hair removal in a flash. </p>
<p>I can see what gravity is starting to subtly do to my face (cheeks just starting to turn to jowls) and see the value a facelift will have in time, FEAR it, don&#8217;t WANT to do it, but know I&#8217;d like the results (doubt I&#8217;ll want to spend the cash though). I did get my teeth whitened.</p>
<p>Also, two of my teeth don&#8217;t match, they are caps I got at 14 and they don&#8217;t exactly match the others in color. I used to not care but I see it now ages me. I&#8217;d redo it in a flash but the dentist says it&#8217;s so well done and so non worn out that he doesn&#8217;t recommend a change.</p>
<p>I suppose all of this is very patriarchal but what can I do? I wouldn&#8217;t mind how I look, I actually look quite well for 50, but I haven&#8217;t accomplished much yet in life<br />
and I want the time back. Also, I can&#8217;t ever afford to retire, have long life expectancy (all women in my family live well to 100) and I might want to go back to school and get a new career, which would mean an entry level job. Capitalism requires I continue to give off a youthful air and I can and so I will.</p>
<p>I am not saying this is good or anything, I am just saying it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Smilegirl</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-359586</link>
		<dc:creator>Smilegirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 02:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-359586</guid>
		<description>What about orthodontic work, does that count as body modification?  It may not be surgery, but it is invasive, painful, lengthy, and expensive.

My work was performed when I was still prepubescent, and we can pretend that it was done to correct the function of my bite, but we all really know it was because I had big weird-looking buck teeth and an overbite.

My smile is much more conventionally pretty now, and contributes a good deal toward my overall attractiveness. How much that affected my later opportunities is anyone&#039;s guess.  Would buck teeth have hampered my ability to succeed?  Possibly; it&#039;s hard to say.

What is certain is that it was painful. As a nine-year-old, I used to cry after the orthodontist tightened my appliance, and would be unable to eat properly for days afterward.  I had to take painkillers, and couldn&#039;t speak properly for months because of all the plastic and metal in my mouth.  

Yet this is considered standard treatment for millions of kids, and plenty of grown-ups do it too.  Where do we rank it on the continuum of bodily modification?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about orthodontic work, does that count as body modification?  It may not be surgery, but it is invasive, painful, lengthy, and expensive.</p>
<p>My work was performed when I was still prepubescent, and we can pretend that it was done to correct the function of my bite, but we all really know it was because I had big weird-looking buck teeth and an overbite.</p>
<p>My smile is much more conventionally pretty now, and contributes a good deal toward my overall attractiveness. How much that affected my later opportunities is anyone&#8217;s guess.  Would buck teeth have hampered my ability to succeed?  Possibly; it&#8217;s hard to say.</p>
<p>What is certain is that it was painful. As a nine-year-old, I used to cry after the orthodontist tightened my appliance, and would be unable to eat properly for days afterward.  I had to take painkillers, and couldn&#8217;t speak properly for months because of all the plastic and metal in my mouth.  </p>
<p>Yet this is considered standard treatment for millions of kids, and plenty of grown-ups do it too.  Where do we rank it on the continuum of bodily modification?</p>
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		<title>By: wackadoodle</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-357569</link>
		<dc:creator>wackadoodle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-357569</guid>
		<description>Folks, I realize we&#039;re at the end of this thread but anyone left should really take a look at this article by a proudly circumsized African woman comparing her culture&#039;s practices to the recent spate of female genetical cosmetic surgery here in the U.S. and Europe. As the author herself states, it&#039;s a strange world we live in.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090702_designer_vaginas_is_female_circumcision_coming_out_of_the_closet/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks, I realize we&#8217;re at the end of this thread but anyone left should really take a look at this article by a proudly circumsized African woman comparing her culture&#8217;s practices to the recent spate of female genetical cosmetic surgery here in the U.S. and Europe. As the author herself states, it&#8217;s a strange world we live in.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090702_designer_vaginas_is_female_circumcision_coming_out_of_the_closet/" rel="nofollow">http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090702_designer_vaginas_is_female_circumcision_coming_out_of_the_closet/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Flavia</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-357077</link>
		<dc:creator>Flavia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-357077</guid>
		<description>My ex had a colleague in her early/mid 30s who got a boob job. Nothing ridiculous -- I think she went from an A cup to a smallish C -- but I have to admit that I judged her for it.

In theory I&#039;m in support of someone doing whatever makes her feel good about herself, and God knows I&#039;ve spent years of my life on hair removal and the like. But this felt different. Because she was an academic? Because she was having relationship trouble and I suspected she was doing it to &quot;keep&quot; her partner?

Or. . . because it made me better able to rationalize my own capitulations to patriarchy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My ex had a colleague in her early/mid 30s who got a boob job. Nothing ridiculous &#8212; I think she went from an A cup to a smallish C &#8212; but I have to admit that I judged her for it.</p>
<p>In theory I&#8217;m in support of someone doing whatever makes her feel good about herself, and God knows I&#8217;ve spent years of my life on hair removal and the like. But this felt different. Because she was an academic? Because she was having relationship trouble and I suspected she was doing it to &#8220;keep&#8221; her partner?</p>
<p>Or. . . because it made me better able to rationalize my own capitulations to patriarchy?</p>
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		<title>By: wackadoodle</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-356370</link>
		<dc:creator>wackadoodle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-356370</guid>
		<description>historiann, your words:

but these women are themselves colluding in the objectification of their own bodies and are perhaps looking for that specific kind of male attention.


That&#039;s exactly how I see it. Implant wearers feel empowered when suddenly every guy is admiring them -- getting male sexual attention makes them feel validated, though they might also feel overwhelmed and surprised by the intensity of male response.

My Carrie Bradshaw question remains:  if you&#039;re an accomplished and even attractive professional why are you feeling so disempowered? Age, divorce, self-esteem?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>historiann, your words:</p>
<p>but these women are themselves colluding in the objectification of their own bodies and are perhaps looking for that specific kind of male attention.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s exactly how I see it. Implant wearers feel empowered when suddenly every guy is admiring them &#8212; getting male sexual attention makes them feel validated, though they might also feel overwhelmed and surprised by the intensity of male response.</p>
<p>My Carrie Bradshaw question remains:  if you&#8217;re an accomplished and even attractive professional why are you feeling so disempowered? Age, divorce, self-esteem?</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-356186</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-356186</guid>
		<description>Sisyphus:  great points.  What can&#039;t queer theory explain, or explain better?  I&#039;m waiting...

Anyhoo--I agree with you that the language of people transitioning bears remarkable resemblance to the language of women seeking &quot;improvement&quot; or &quot;enhancement.&quot;  I would consider many women&#039;s performances of femininity to be in the category of &quot;female female impersonators.&quot;  (Think Dolly Parton or other performers who put on the Va-Va-Va-VOOM--whether or not the equipment is real or acquired surgically is beside the point, and the presentation matters too.)  Men who distort their bodies with steroids would seem to be in the same category (of male male impersonators.)

I think &lt;a href=&quot;http://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/2009/06/man-in-mirror-who-was-michael-jackson.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tenured Radical&#039;s post on Michael Jackson&lt;/a&gt; from earlier this week was a brilliant analysis in and of itself, but she comments on his many physical transformations which she reads as more about gender than racial transformations.  (And I think she&#039;s right about that, entirely.)  

What makes a transsexual sympathetic, and an XX chromosome person with breast implants a suspect feminist and a black man whose skin blanches over time a traitor to his race?  I don&#039;t know.  I know I feel much more sympathetic to the transsexual than I do to the woman with the (IMHO) false consciousness that she needs bigger b00bs.  I don&#039;t know if any of us have entirely consistent applications of our dividing line between what&#039;s an acceptable use of surgery or other techologies for bodily modification for us and what&#039;s one step beyond...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sisyphus:  great points.  What can&#8217;t queer theory explain, or explain better?  I&#8217;m waiting&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyhoo&#8211;I agree with you that the language of people transitioning bears remarkable resemblance to the language of women seeking &#8220;improvement&#8221; or &#8220;enhancement.&#8221;  I would consider many women&#8217;s performances of femininity to be in the category of &#8220;female female impersonators.&#8221;  (Think Dolly Parton or other performers who put on the Va-Va-Va-VOOM&#8211;whether or not the equipment is real or acquired surgically is beside the point, and the presentation matters too.)  Men who distort their bodies with steroids would seem to be in the same category (of male male impersonators.)</p>
<p>I think <a href="http://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/2009/06/man-in-mirror-who-was-michael-jackson.html" rel="nofollow">Tenured Radical&#8217;s post on Michael Jackson</a> from earlier this week was a brilliant analysis in and of itself, but she comments on his many physical transformations which she reads as more about gender than racial transformations.  (And I think she&#8217;s right about that, entirely.)  </p>
<p>What makes a transsexual sympathetic, and an XX chromosome person with breast implants a suspect feminist and a black man whose skin blanches over time a traitor to his race?  I don&#8217;t know.  I know I feel much more sympathetic to the transsexual than I do to the woman with the (IMHO) false consciousness that she needs bigger b00bs.  I don&#8217;t know if any of us have entirely consistent applications of our dividing line between what&#8217;s an acceptable use of surgery or other techologies for bodily modification for us and what&#8217;s one step beyond&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-356179</link>
		<dc:creator>Sisyphus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-356179</guid>
		<description>The whole question of what is &quot;plastic surgery&quot; and what is &quot;body modification&quot; and whether we divide these into &quot;good&quot; versions or &quot;bad&quot; ones is fascinating. (BTW, I had LASIK for purely vain reasons --- not covered by insurance because glasses and contacts work perfectly well and I just hated looking all nerdy wearing them. I would put LASIK in the same category as the chemical peels and the less-invasive lifts. It&#039;s plastic surgery.)

What I&#039;m currently trying to wrap my head around is the transgender aspect of body modification, because we generally make arguments that women who are undergoing beauty procedures because they hate their bodies and the way they look are somehow &quot;dupes of the patriarchy,&quot; yet transgender people often use the same language of self-loathing to describe why they want surgery, and they are seen as having &quot;real, authentic selves inside&quot; that they are recovering rather than being seen as dupes of the culture that is instilling thoughts into their heads. It&#039;s all very tricky and confusing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole question of what is &#8220;plastic surgery&#8221; and what is &#8220;body modification&#8221; and whether we divide these into &#8220;good&#8221; versions or &#8220;bad&#8221; ones is fascinating. (BTW, I had LASIK for purely vain reasons &#8212; not covered by insurance because glasses and contacts work perfectly well and I just hated looking all nerdy wearing them. I would put LASIK in the same category as the chemical peels and the less-invasive lifts. It&#8217;s plastic surgery.)</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m currently trying to wrap my head around is the transgender aspect of body modification, because we generally make arguments that women who are undergoing beauty procedures because they hate their bodies and the way they look are somehow &#8220;dupes of the patriarchy,&#8221; yet transgender people often use the same language of self-loathing to describe why they want surgery, and they are seen as having &#8220;real, authentic selves inside&#8221; that they are recovering rather than being seen as dupes of the culture that is instilling thoughts into their heads. It&#8217;s all very tricky and confusing.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/07/02/dr-strpper-tts-i-presume/comment-page-1/#comment-356173</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=6015#comment-356173</guid>
		<description>wackadoodle--welcome.  And, great points.  (On hirsutism in adult men:  I&#039;m reliably informed by a gay male informant that the chest waxing etc. is really a straight male kink, not a gay thing at all.)

I think you&#039;re exactly right about asking why women with their own money would choose to spend it on plastic surgery.  I certainly don&#039;t understand it, and moreover, I would think (as you suggest) that many professional women might be regarded skeptically/differently at work for having &quot;work done.&quot;  I&#039;m not saying that it&#039;s ever right ever to be regarded as &quot;the bod&quot; at work--but these women are themselves colluding in the objectification of their own bodies and are perhaps looking for that specific kind of male attention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wackadoodle&#8211;welcome.  And, great points.  (On hirsutism in adult men:  I&#8217;m reliably informed by a gay male informant that the chest waxing etc. is really a straight male kink, not a gay thing at all.)</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re exactly right about asking why women with their own money would choose to spend it on plastic surgery.  I certainly don&#8217;t understand it, and moreover, I would think (as you suggest) that many professional women might be regarded skeptically/differently at work for having &#8220;work done.&#8221;  I&#8217;m not saying that it&#8217;s ever right ever to be regarded as &#8220;the bod&#8221; at work&#8211;but these women are themselves colluding in the objectification of their own bodies and are perhaps looking for that specific kind of male attention.</p>
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