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	<title>Comments on: Lesson for girls:  if you don&#8217;t ask, you don&#8217;t get.</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-505130</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-505130</guid>
		<description>lily--I&#039;m sorry (and yet totally unsurprised) if you are speaking from personal experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lily&#8211;I&#8217;m sorry (and yet totally unsurprised) if you are speaking from personal experience.</p>
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		<title>By: lily</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-505080</link>
		<dc:creator>lily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-505080</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And, women who act like professionals and negotiate their salary may be treated poorly and have it held against them, as my own experience bears out.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


Agreed.   Asking for a raise can destroy your career at a company.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And, women who act like professionals and negotiate their salary may be treated poorly and have it held against them, as my own experience bears out.</p></blockquote>
<p>Agreed.   Asking for a raise can destroy your career at a company.</p>
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		<title>By: Lessons for Girls #14: Don&#8217;t just ask, insist on help : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-375160</link>
		<dc:creator>Lessons for Girls #14: Don&#8217;t just ask, insist on help : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-375160</guid>
		<description>[...] Sisyphus&#8217;s lesson:  &#8220;I loved your post, but isn’t your stance another iteration of “women don’t ask” re: salary? If you insist on privilege (or equal pay) and the person you’re talking to doesn’t agree that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sisyphus&#8217;s lesson:  &#8220;I loved your post, but isn’t your stance another iteration of “women don’t ask” re: salary? If you insist on privilege (or equal pay) and the person you’re talking to doesn’t agree that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shaz</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-331628</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-331628</guid>
		<description>My old public University provides pay equity calculators that allow you to figure statistically what your salary would be if you were a white male and provides lists pay positive or negative residuals for every faculty (how much lower or higher every faculty is compared to a white male with their qualifications).  Not perfect by any means, but knowledge is the first step.  And while I don&#039;t want to blame the vicitm, there is research that shows that women, on average, ask for 10% lower salary than men.  We should continue to agitate for change, but can also aim for individual change (like stopping being nice, as you say).  In my experience, women sometimes have an easier time thinking of asking for a higher salary as a public/feminist good: every time a woman gets a higher salary, it makes it easier for the next woman.  So you&#039;re really doing a community service!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My old public University provides pay equity calculators that allow you to figure statistically what your salary would be if you were a white male and provides lists pay positive or negative residuals for every faculty (how much lower or higher every faculty is compared to a white male with their qualifications).  Not perfect by any means, but knowledge is the first step.  And while I don&#8217;t want to blame the vicitm, there is research that shows that women, on average, ask for 10% lower salary than men.  We should continue to agitate for change, but can also aim for individual change (like stopping being nice, as you say).  In my experience, women sometimes have an easier time thinking of asking for a higher salary as a public/feminist good: every time a woman gets a higher salary, it makes it easier for the next woman.  So you&#8217;re really doing a community service!</p>
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		<title>By: susurro</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-331532</link>
		<dc:creator>susurro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-331532</guid>
		<description>Bing - along w/historiann&#039;s suggestions you can also check the chronicle. They have average salaries for most schools in most ranks both public and private. I advised all of my academe bound grads to check there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bing &#8211; along w/historiann&#8217;s suggestions you can also check the chronicle. They have average salaries for most schools in most ranks both public and private. I advised all of my academe bound grads to check there.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-331510</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-331510</guid>
		<description>ADM--great, great story.  

I have to say that I know exactly what you mean.  Once upon a time, I was in a situation in which I could either solve the problem myself, or take it to my department and my Dean and ask them for help.  Foolishly--in retrospect--I decided to solve it myself because I was (like your colleague) in a privileged situation to solve the problem, and I didn&#039;t want to be any trouble.  (How &quot;nice&quot; can you get, eh?)  But it was the wrong decision--not everyone else in my situation will be able to follow my lead, and I regret not deciding to let myself be a burr under someone else&#039;s saddle for the very reason that you state.  This too is related to that post I linked to above, &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/11/money-class-and-the-values-of-academe/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Money, class, and the values of academe&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ADM&#8211;great, great story.  </p>
<p>I have to say that I know exactly what you mean.  Once upon a time, I was in a situation in which I could either solve the problem myself, or take it to my department and my Dean and ask them for help.  Foolishly&#8211;in retrospect&#8211;I decided to solve it myself because I was (like your colleague) in a privileged situation to solve the problem, and I didn&#8217;t want to be any trouble.  (How &#8220;nice&#8221; can you get, eh?)  But it was the wrong decision&#8211;not everyone else in my situation will be able to follow my lead, and I regret not deciding to let myself be a burr under someone else&#8217;s saddle for the very reason that you state.  This too is related to that post I linked to above, &#8220;<a href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/11/money-class-and-the-values-of-academe/" rel="nofollow">Money, class, and the values of academe</a>.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: ADM</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-331509</link>
		<dc:creator>ADM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-331509</guid>
		<description>You know, I talked with a friend about this today.  Said friend has often allowed work to go uncompensated, even though she is herself a strong feminist.  Part of it is that she understands, as do we all, that SLAC operates in some ways on a shoestring (many administrators gave up raises at all this year, to make sure that faculty and staff got something).  So in some ways, when she says that she is willing to take something on without compensation because she wants to grow a program, or for some other reason, it makes sense.  Except.

I&#039;ve got to the point where I look at her and say, &quot;It may be your choice. You may be able to afford that choice. But I can&#039;t, and you are setting a precedent that I can&#039;t and don&#039;t want to live up to. Could you please stop saying yes, and instead, before you open your mouth, ask yourself what [nice, very good, great colleague, but also very self-promoting and well-paid, always compensated for all work at a higher-rate male] colleague would say?  Because while I would prefer not to be known as being that pushy?  I want SLAC to see his example as the one they follow when it comes to pay, not yours. 

Because honestly -- even though the dean fights for equity, he&#039;s not going to turn down people who don&#039;t ask for what they&#039;re worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I talked with a friend about this today.  Said friend has often allowed work to go uncompensated, even though she is herself a strong feminist.  Part of it is that she understands, as do we all, that SLAC operates in some ways on a shoestring (many administrators gave up raises at all this year, to make sure that faculty and staff got something).  So in some ways, when she says that she is willing to take something on without compensation because she wants to grow a program, or for some other reason, it makes sense.  Except.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve got to the point where I look at her and say, &#8220;It may be your choice. You may be able to afford that choice. But I can&#8217;t, and you are setting a precedent that I can&#8217;t and don&#8217;t want to live up to. Could you please stop saying yes, and instead, before you open your mouth, ask yourself what [nice, very good, great colleague, but also very self-promoting and well-paid, always compensated for all work at a higher-rate male] colleague would say?  Because while I would prefer not to be known as being that pushy?  I want SLAC to see his example as the one they follow when it comes to pay, not yours. </p>
<p>Because honestly &#8212; even though the dean fights for equity, he&#8217;s not going to turn down people who don&#8217;t ask for what they&#8217;re worth.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-331508</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-331508</guid>
		<description>Bing--your professional organization probably keeps track of salary averages, and I think the AAUP has collected raw data (although not as precise as MLA or AHA-generated data, for example) about faculty salaries.  But, if you&#039;re negotiating with a public university, faculty salaries (like the salaries of all state employees) are public information.  On a campus visit, you should ask for time to visit the library, and go to the reference desk to ask for the salary book.  (It gets a lot of traffic--they&#039;ll know what you&#039;re looking for.  At Baa Ram U. they call it the &quot;black book,&quot; to enhance your feelings that you&#039;re getting access to illicit or slightly scandalous information.)  That&#039;s the best evidence you can get for what other people at your rank and in your possibly future department are paid.  But even then, I would say aim high, and be sure to list all of the reasons why you deserve better than their opening gambit.  They can always say no, but they might say yes, or make a counter-offer.  (That&#039;s been my usual experience--I&#039;ve never had someone let me &quot;Name My Price,&quot; which for most of us is just a dream!)

IIRC, you&#039;ll have had a postdoc under your belt next year, and you&#039;ve got your degree in hand, so you should be offered more money than an ABD or someone who hasn&#039;t had a postdoc.  Think too about the publications you have, other fellowships/honors/awards/prizes, and teaching experience--all of those count for something, so don&#039;t be afraid to remind them why you came out on top ahead of 100-300 other applications.

I like your comparison to the secret ballot.  But then, I think the inability of humanities types to deal with money issues in a straightforward way has to do with the inherent class bias of our calling, and the presumption that we&#039;ve all got inheritances or rich spouses to make sure that baby has new shoes.  (I&#039;ve written about this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/11/money-class-and-the-values-of-academe/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; before.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bing&#8211;your professional organization probably keeps track of salary averages, and I think the AAUP has collected raw data (although not as precise as MLA or AHA-generated data, for example) about faculty salaries.  But, if you&#8217;re negotiating with a public university, faculty salaries (like the salaries of all state employees) are public information.  On a campus visit, you should ask for time to visit the library, and go to the reference desk to ask for the salary book.  (It gets a lot of traffic&#8211;they&#8217;ll know what you&#8217;re looking for.  At Baa Ram U. they call it the &#8220;black book,&#8221; to enhance your feelings that you&#8217;re getting access to illicit or slightly scandalous information.)  That&#8217;s the best evidence you can get for what other people at your rank and in your possibly future department are paid.  But even then, I would say aim high, and be sure to list all of the reasons why you deserve better than their opening gambit.  They can always say no, but they might say yes, or make a counter-offer.  (That&#8217;s been my usual experience&#8211;I&#8217;ve never had someone let me &#8220;Name My Price,&#8221; which for most of us is just a dream!)</p>
<p>IIRC, you&#8217;ll have had a postdoc under your belt next year, and you&#8217;ve got your degree in hand, so you should be offered more money than an ABD or someone who hasn&#8217;t had a postdoc.  Think too about the publications you have, other fellowships/honors/awards/prizes, and teaching experience&#8211;all of those count for something, so don&#8217;t be afraid to remind them why you came out on top ahead of 100-300 other applications.</p>
<p>I like your comparison to the secret ballot.  But then, I think the inability of humanities types to deal with money issues in a straightforward way has to do with the inherent class bias of our calling, and the presumption that we&#8217;ve all got inheritances or rich spouses to make sure that baby has new shoes.  (I&#8217;ve written about this <a href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/11/money-class-and-the-values-of-academe/" rel="nofollow">here</a> before.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bing</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-331495</link>
		<dc:creator>Bing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-331495</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never negotiated a salary, but how does one find out what others in your department are making, and what would be considered a &quot;fair&quot; wage?  I only ask because asking what someone is being paid, even though I am boorish and likely to say ask almost any damned fool question to anyone, is one thing that people (inexplicably to me) get really unnerved by.  It&#039;s sacred, like the secret ballot.

I do hope that you file for the review, however.

HJ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never negotiated a salary, but how does one find out what others in your department are making, and what would be considered a &#8220;fair&#8221; wage?  I only ask because asking what someone is being paid, even though I am boorish and likely to say ask almost any damned fool question to anyone, is one thing that people (inexplicably to me) get really unnerved by.  It&#8217;s sacred, like the secret ballot.</p>
<p>I do hope that you file for the review, however.</p>
<p>HJ</p>
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		<title>By: susurro</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/06/09/lesson-for-girls-if-you-dont-ask-you-dont-get/comment-page-1/#comment-331336</link>
		<dc:creator>susurro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5652#comment-331336</guid>
		<description>&quot;stop being nice&quot;

I think that &quot;nice&quot; is what often helps engender these negotiations. Women are expected to be &quot;nice&quot;,&quot;passive&quot;, and apologetic when they ask for pay equity. If you can pull all of that off while negotiating for better pay, you might actually get it b/c it doesn&#039;t seem like you are threatening gender norms.  Then again you might be subject to all kinds of condescending sexism first or worse subjected to it and then denied w/ a &quot;run a long now.&quot; But if you ask with respect and an eye to your accomplishments or published salary tables it is all the more threatening, and likely to lead to punishment now or later, b/c you are openly defying gender norms. So there is the issue of patriarchal inequality built into the salary system but also the social aspects of it that help demean those of us who ask either through a forced mask of femininity or punishment for failing to play &quot;daddy&#039;s little girl&quot; to who ever holds the key to the coffer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;stop being nice&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that &#8220;nice&#8221; is what often helps engender these negotiations. Women are expected to be &#8220;nice&#8221;,&#8221;passive&#8221;, and apologetic when they ask for pay equity. If you can pull all of that off while negotiating for better pay, you might actually get it b/c it doesn&#8217;t seem like you are threatening gender norms.  Then again you might be subject to all kinds of condescending sexism first or worse subjected to it and then denied w/ a &#8220;run a long now.&#8221; But if you ask with respect and an eye to your accomplishments or published salary tables it is all the more threatening, and likely to lead to punishment now or later, b/c you are openly defying gender norms. So there is the issue of patriarchal inequality built into the salary system but also the social aspects of it that help demean those of us who ask either through a forced mask of femininity or punishment for failing to play &#8220;daddy&#8217;s little girl&#8221; to who ever holds the key to the coffer.</p>
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