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	<title>Comments on: Bob Somerby watches MSNBC so you don&#8217;t have to!</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Mark K.</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-310158</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 14:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-310158</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know that I had higher expectations for liberals, but then, I&#039;d been hearing references to &quot;President Codpiece&quot; ever since that May 2003 event...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know that I had higher expectations for liberals, but then, I&#8217;d been hearing references to &#8220;President Codpiece&#8221; ever since that May 2003 event&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-309679</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 23:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-309679</guid>
		<description>Oh--of course!  That was a very special moment, May 1, 2003, wasn&#039;t it?  That was a weird moment in time, when we were being asked to admire the package of the president, and to see his Sec Def as a paragon of American masculinity because of his aggressive dealings with the press.  

I guess I had higher expectations of so-called liberals not to get into the d!ck swinging/d!ck discourses, since both the Clinton impeachment/Starr Report and the &quot;manly characteristic&quot; talk was all Republican-generated.  My mistake!  It will never happen again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh&#8211;of course!  That was a very special moment, May 1, 2003, wasn&#8217;t it?  That was a weird moment in time, when we were being asked to admire the package of the president, and to see his Sec Def as a paragon of American masculinity because of his aggressive dealings with the press.  </p>
<p>I guess I had higher expectations of so-called liberals not to get into the d!ck swinging/d!ck discourses, since both the Clinton impeachment/Starr Report and the &#8220;manly characteristic&#8221; talk was all Republican-generated.  My mistake!  It will never happen again.</p>
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		<title>By: John S.</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-309520</link>
		<dc:creator>John S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 22:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-309520</guid>
		<description>Every 10 years, Historiann? Did you miss the discussion of George Bush in the flight suit in 2003, when G. Gordon Liddy spoke about how it accentuated his &quot;manly characteristic&quot;? Hearing him discuss this with Chris Matthews was, well....special.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every 10 years, Historiann? Did you miss the discussion of George Bush in the flight suit in 2003, when G. Gordon Liddy spoke about how it accentuated his &#8220;manly characteristic&#8221;? Hearing him discuss this with Chris Matthews was, well&#8230;.special.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-309484</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 21:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-309484</guid>
		<description>Eeewww.

Mark, thanks for the additional info.  I was unaware of people from the right referring to &quot;tea-bagging&quot;--most of the people on the right who were publicizing the events called them (very primly) &quot;tea parties.&quot;  But, you point to some exceptions.  IMHO, people on whatever side who used that term should get their mouths washed out with soap.

What is it, every 10 years American political culture becomes d!ck-obssessed?  Yuk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eeewww.</p>
<p>Mark, thanks for the additional info.  I was unaware of people from the right referring to &#8220;tea-bagging&#8221;&#8211;most of the people on the right who were publicizing the events called them (very primly) &#8220;tea parties.&#8221;  But, you point to some exceptions.  IMHO, people on whatever side who used that term should get their mouths washed out with soap.</p>
<p>What is it, every 10 years American political culture becomes d!ck-obssessed?  Yuk.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark K.</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-309474</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 19:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-309474</guid>
		<description>Re: &quot;who started with the &#039;tea-bagging&#039; label?&quot;

Taking no position on the appropriateness, or lack thereof, of lefty jokes about tea-bagging, it isn&#039;t true that they were the sole originators of the label. For example:

http://washingtonindependent.com/31868/scenes-from-the-new-american-tea-party (picture of a protest sign, posted 2/27/09)

http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/archives/2009/03/fox_news_report.html (Fox News clip from 3/18/09)

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2009/03/21/ (daily conservative comic, uses the baggin&#039; joke on 3/21/09) [this is actually where I first saw/heard it, fwiw]

Yes, liberals ran with the meme with gleeful abandon, far outweighing its usage on the right. Critique away on that. But the right is not innocent in the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: &#8220;who started with the &#8216;tea-bagging&#8217; label?&#8221;</p>
<p>Taking no position on the appropriateness, or lack thereof, of lefty jokes about tea-bagging, it isn&#8217;t true that they were the sole originators of the label. For example:</p>
<p><a href="http://washingtonindependent.com/31868/scenes-from-the-new-american-tea-party" rel="nofollow">http://washingtonindependent.com/31868/scenes-from-the-new-american-tea-party</a> (picture of a protest sign, posted 2/27/09)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/archives/2009/03/fox_news_report.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/archives/2009/03/fox_news_report.html</a> (Fox News clip from 3/18/09)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2009/03/21/" rel="nofollow">http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2009/03/21/</a> (daily conservative comic, uses the baggin&#8217; joke on 3/21/09) [this is actually where I first saw/heard it, fwiw]</p>
<p>Yes, liberals ran with the meme with gleeful abandon, far outweighing its usage on the right. Critique away on that. But the right is not innocent in the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-307543</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 21:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-307543</guid>
		<description>Emma--thanks for that longer explanation.  I see your point on the use of pr()nified discourse to discredit one&#039;s political opponents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emma&#8211;thanks for that longer explanation.  I see your point on the use of pr()nified discourse to discredit one&#8217;s political opponents.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-307500</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 21:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-307500</guid>
		<description>The glass house is not the lesbian/gay relationship or sexuality per se.  The glass house is using p*rnification as a weapon to discredit people and/or their politics.  Gay/lesbian relationships and gays/lesbians are much more vulnerable to that type of weapon and it will always be used more effectively against us than against the people Maddow used it against.  Further, Maddow, because of the nature of her relationship in particular, is specifically more vulnerable to that weapon.

Maddow may not care.  It may not be on her radar.  She may have thought about that and dismissed it.  She may feel she acted appropriately re:  &quot;tea bagging&quot; and that people using it against her wouldn&#039;t be acting appropriately so she would be justified in calling them out without ever questioning her own behavior.  Or she may feel that the argument I&#039;ve made is homophobic because it gives in to the hostility toward gays/lesbian in this society.

And all those arguments may be right and I may be wrong.  But I don&#039;t believe I am.  I sincerely believe that Audre Lorde is right:  the master&#039;s tools will never dismantle the master&#039;s house and p*rnification is the masters&#039; tool.  And I&#039;m not going to ratify that tools so that it can be used against me with a patina of legitimacy because &quot;she did it too!&quot;

Moreover, the cause in which Maddow was using this tool is not worth the dangers created by Maddow in using it.  Was there some more noble, wonderful purpose or goal she was pursuing?  Hardly.  Her T.V. ratings and her status as the hippest, coolest, most guy friendly lesbian/woman on T.V. is simply not something worth what she had done to attain that goal and continues to do to maintain it.  

As for &quot;discrediting&quot; the tea parties, I&#039;m pretty sure their lack of credibility was built right in and there was no need to pull out this particular tool to make them look as politically foolish as they were.

YMMV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The glass house is not the lesbian/gay relationship or sexuality per se.  The glass house is using p*rnification as a weapon to discredit people and/or their politics.  Gay/lesbian relationships and gays/lesbians are much more vulnerable to that type of weapon and it will always be used more effectively against us than against the people Maddow used it against.  Further, Maddow, because of the nature of her relationship in particular, is specifically more vulnerable to that weapon.</p>
<p>Maddow may not care.  It may not be on her radar.  She may have thought about that and dismissed it.  She may feel she acted appropriately re:  &#8220;tea bagging&#8221; and that people using it against her wouldn&#8217;t be acting appropriately so she would be justified in calling them out without ever questioning her own behavior.  Or she may feel that the argument I&#8217;ve made is homophobic because it gives in to the hostility toward gays/lesbian in this society.</p>
<p>And all those arguments may be right and I may be wrong.  But I don&#8217;t believe I am.  I sincerely believe that Audre Lorde is right:  the master&#8217;s tools will never dismantle the master&#8217;s house and p*rnification is the masters&#8217; tool.  And I&#8217;m not going to ratify that tools so that it can be used against me with a patina of legitimacy because &#8220;she did it too!&#8221;</p>
<p>Moreover, the cause in which Maddow was using this tool is not worth the dangers created by Maddow in using it.  Was there some more noble, wonderful purpose or goal she was pursuing?  Hardly.  Her T.V. ratings and her status as the hippest, coolest, most guy friendly lesbian/woman on T.V. is simply not something worth what she had done to attain that goal and continues to do to maintain it.  </p>
<p>As for &#8220;discrediting&#8221; the tea parties, I&#8217;m pretty sure their lack of credibility was built right in and there was no need to pull out this particular tool to make them look as politically foolish as they were.</p>
<p>YMMV.</p>
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		<title>By: Rad Readr</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-307464</link>
		<dc:creator>Rad Readr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 21:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-307464</guid>
		<description>Why is Maddow or anyone else in a glass house because of a same-sex relationship? The metaphor doesn&#039;t work. I think the point is that perhaps since she is the potential target of attacks based on her sexuality, then she should be more sensitive to attacking others???

And not to pick on Emma, but I&#039;m not sure that what Maddow is doing and someone else&#039;s potential response to a lesbian relationship can both be classified as pornification. Again, I raise this as an opportunity for further discussion and not to flame Emma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is Maddow or anyone else in a glass house because of a same-sex relationship? The metaphor doesn&#8217;t work. I think the point is that perhaps since she is the potential target of attacks based on her sexuality, then she should be more sensitive to attacking others???</p>
<p>And not to pick on Emma, but I&#8217;m not sure that what Maddow is doing and someone else&#8217;s potential response to a lesbian relationship can both be classified as pornification. Again, I raise this as an opportunity for further discussion and not to flame Emma.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-307446</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 20:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-307446</guid>
		<description>And since I&#039;m a dyke I&#039;m well aware of what it&#039;s like to have my sexuality and my relationships p*rnified.  Anyone who is gay or lesbian perforce lives in a glass house re:  using p*rnification as a weapon.  I try my best not to use that as a weapon against others because that legitimizes its use against me and mine.  Maddow, a Rhodes scholar, is certainly bright enough to get &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; at the very least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And since I&#8217;m a dyke I&#8217;m well aware of what it&#8217;s like to have my sexuality and my relationships p*rnified.  Anyone who is gay or lesbian perforce lives in a glass house re:  using p*rnification as a weapon.  I try my best not to use that as a weapon against others because that legitimizes its use against me and mine.  Maddow, a Rhodes scholar, is certainly bright enough to get <i>that</i> at the very least.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/05/02/bob-somerby-watches-msnbc-so-you-dont-have-to/comment-page-1/#comment-307443</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 20:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=5044#comment-307443</guid>
		<description>To clarify my point about Maddow throwing stones:  given the potential for p*rnification of her &lt;i&gt;own&lt;/i&gt; relationship, Maddow would be well advised to think twice about publicly p*rnifying anybody else.

I don&#039;t think p*rnifying anybody (or anybody&#039;s relationship is a good idea).  And I think Maddow would be well advised of two maxims:

1)  People in glass houses shouldn&#039;t throw stones; and

2) The master&#039;s tools will never dismantle the master&#039;s house.

But, since Maddow seems intent on living in the master&#039;s house, the first is probably more apropos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To clarify my point about Maddow throwing stones:  given the potential for p*rnification of her <i>own</i> relationship, Maddow would be well advised to think twice about publicly p*rnifying anybody else.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think p*rnifying anybody (or anybody&#8217;s relationship is a good idea).  And I think Maddow would be well advised of two maxims:</p>
<p>1)  People in glass houses shouldn&#8217;t throw stones; and</p>
<p>2) The master&#8217;s tools will never dismantle the master&#8217;s house.</p>
<p>But, since Maddow seems intent on living in the master&#8217;s house, the first is probably more apropos.</p>
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