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	<title>Comments on: J&#8217;accuse, or, I got yer class warfare right here, pal.</title>
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	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-261832</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-261832</guid>
		<description>rootlesscosmo--it&#039;s good to hear from you again.  Thanks so much for your insider historical perspective on Prop 13.  Sadly, it looks like you and the other opponents back in the day were absolutely correct.

Here in Colorado, our &quot;third rail&quot; is TABOR, the evil &quot;drown the government in the bathtub&quot; amendment that not only mandates refunds to us taxpayers (who don&#039;t pay enough in the first place, IMHO) in bad budget years, it requires us to shrink government in bad budget years and won&#039;t let us re-grow it to an adequate level when the good times return.  So even if in FY &#039;11 and &#039;12 many states are singing &quot;Happy Days are Here Again,&quot; it won&#039;t be happy times here in the Centennial State.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rootlesscosmo&#8211;it&#8217;s good to hear from you again.  Thanks so much for your insider historical perspective on Prop 13.  Sadly, it looks like you and the other opponents back in the day were absolutely correct.</p>
<p>Here in Colorado, our &#8220;third rail&#8221; is TABOR, the evil &#8220;drown the government in the bathtub&#8221; amendment that not only mandates refunds to us taxpayers (who don&#8217;t pay enough in the first place, IMHO) in bad budget years, it requires us to shrink government in bad budget years and won&#8217;t let us re-grow it to an adequate level when the good times return.  So even if in FY &#8217;11 and &#8217;12 many states are singing &#8220;Happy Days are Here Again,&#8221; it won&#8217;t be happy times here in the Centennial State.</p>
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		<title>By: rootlesscosmo</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-261813</link>
		<dc:creator>rootlesscosmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-261813</guid>
		<description>Prop. 13 has had a number of terrible consequences, not all of them foreseen even by those of us who opposed it at the time. Example: local governments can&#039;t raise revenue from property taxes, but they can from sales taxes, which (a) are regressive in impact and (b) create bidding wars between towns to attract big box, high-volume (and oh yes, non-union) retailers by offering free water, safety, and other inducements. Another example: the civil courts, especially in fast-growing counties like Contra Costa, are completely overwhelmed, despite having imposed or increased fees for things like filing motions. 

The effect on home prices is more complicated. Yes, 13 rolled back assessments to 1978 levels, but it permits re-assessments every time property is sold, so you get look-alike adjacent homes, one in the same hands since 1978, one that&#039;s been resold a few times, paying vastly different taxes. We did foresee, 30 years ago, that because commercial property changes hands much less often than homes, 13 would mostly benefit commercial landlords and agribiz; instead of 13, we urged voters to support a measure on the same ballot that would have allowed different tax &lt;i&gt;rates&lt;/i&gt; for commercial and residential property. But homeowner rage, very much fueled by racist notions about who pays for government and who &quot;sponges off&quot; it, was unstoppable, and even now, with our roads crumbling and our schools terrible etc. etc., Prop. 13 is considered untouchable, a political Third Rail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prop. 13 has had a number of terrible consequences, not all of them foreseen even by those of us who opposed it at the time. Example: local governments can&#8217;t raise revenue from property taxes, but they can from sales taxes, which (a) are regressive in impact and (b) create bidding wars between towns to attract big box, high-volume (and oh yes, non-union) retailers by offering free water, safety, and other inducements. Another example: the civil courts, especially in fast-growing counties like Contra Costa, are completely overwhelmed, despite having imposed or increased fees for things like filing motions. </p>
<p>The effect on home prices is more complicated. Yes, 13 rolled back assessments to 1978 levels, but it permits re-assessments every time property is sold, so you get look-alike adjacent homes, one in the same hands since 1978, one that&#8217;s been resold a few times, paying vastly different taxes. We did foresee, 30 years ago, that because commercial property changes hands much less often than homes, 13 would mostly benefit commercial landlords and agribiz; instead of 13, we urged voters to support a measure on the same ballot that would have allowed different tax <i>rates</i> for commercial and residential property. But homeowner rage, very much fueled by racist notions about who pays for government and who &#8220;sponges off&#8221; it, was unstoppable, and even now, with our roads crumbling and our schools terrible etc. etc., Prop. 13 is considered untouchable, a political Third Rail.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-261672</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-261672</guid>
		<description>Sisyphus--I&#039;ll take a look at the book you recommend.  I&#039;ve been teaching more environmental and environmental-ish history in the past few years, since that&#039;s an emerging field in my department.  (I&#039;ll never be an environmental historian, but I like to support our students&#039; interests in the field, especially when I teach a grad class.)

And Geoff and Liz--thanks for your further clarification on Prop 13.  It still screwed at least a generation--MY generation--of public school students in California (ca. 1978-1990-something, when the prices really skyrocketed).  For the record--I didn&#039;t grow up in CA, but the &quot;taxpayers revolt&quot; there had implications in school districts across the country.  My memory is of my school district constantly putting school levies on the ballot--like every year--and that sometimes they passed, and sometimes they didn&#039;t.  I&#039;m not saying that California is entirely to blame--clearly there was a zeitgeist linked to stagflation and the incredibly shrinking American dollar--just saying that it was probably the most dramatic and most publicized anti-tax measure of the time.  

I think some kind of tax relief is appropriate for longtime owners on fixed incomes--and in the 1970s, there weren&#039;t as many ways to make home equity work for you as there came to be in the 1990s and 2000s.  But there are an awful lot of people who enjoyed profit without paying their fair share.  (Why not just adjust everyone&#039;s tax rate downwards, if property tax valuations were going through the roof?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sisyphus&#8211;I&#8217;ll take a look at the book you recommend.  I&#8217;ve been teaching more environmental and environmental-ish history in the past few years, since that&#8217;s an emerging field in my department.  (I&#8217;ll never be an environmental historian, but I like to support our students&#8217; interests in the field, especially when I teach a grad class.)</p>
<p>And Geoff and Liz&#8211;thanks for your further clarification on Prop 13.  It still screwed at least a generation&#8211;MY generation&#8211;of public school students in California (ca. 1978-1990-something, when the prices really skyrocketed).  For the record&#8211;I didn&#8217;t grow up in CA, but the &#8220;taxpayers revolt&#8221; there had implications in school districts across the country.  My memory is of my school district constantly putting school levies on the ballot&#8211;like every year&#8211;and that sometimes they passed, and sometimes they didn&#8217;t.  I&#8217;m not saying that California is entirely to blame&#8211;clearly there was a zeitgeist linked to stagflation and the incredibly shrinking American dollar&#8211;just saying that it was probably the most dramatic and most publicized anti-tax measure of the time.  </p>
<p>I think some kind of tax relief is appropriate for longtime owners on fixed incomes&#8211;and in the 1970s, there weren&#8217;t as many ways to make home equity work for you as there came to be in the 1990s and 2000s.  But there are an awful lot of people who enjoyed profit without paying their fair share.  (Why not just adjust everyone&#8217;s tax rate downwards, if property tax valuations were going through the roof?)</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-261424</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 05:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-261424</guid>
		<description>To add to what Liz said, my understanding of Prop 13 was that it froze taxes at 1978 levels for those who owned their home in 1978...people who purchased later would be taxed at a significantly higher rate.  Although I wouldn&#039;t have voted for it had I been of voting age at the time, one of the problems Prop 13 was addressing was people on fixed incomes being saddled with quickly rising tax bills as their homes tripled in value (yes...my boyhood $23k home in 1972 to $80k several years later).  California&#039;s current budget woes have at least as much to do with the constitutional requirement of a 2/3rd  legislative majority for a tax increase and an enormous prison-industrial complex as Prop 13, whose effects recede somewhat with time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add to what Liz said, my understanding of Prop 13 was that it froze taxes at 1978 levels for those who owned their home in 1978&#8230;people who purchased later would be taxed at a significantly higher rate.  Although I wouldn&#8217;t have voted for it had I been of voting age at the time, one of the problems Prop 13 was addressing was people on fixed incomes being saddled with quickly rising tax bills as their homes tripled in value (yes&#8230;my boyhood $23k home in 1972 to $80k several years later).  California&#8217;s current budget woes have at least as much to do with the constitutional requirement of a 2/3rd  legislative majority for a tax increase and an enormous prison-industrial complex as Prop 13, whose effects recede somewhat with time.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-261331</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-261331</guid>
		<description>I just want to point out that Prop 13 actually has a very complicated effect on the housing market in CA.  It does cap property taxes, therefore making higher prices more &#039;affordable&#039;...but it also encourages people to never, ever sell their house, since property taxes are always based on your house&#039;s original (not even, I believe, inflation-adjusted) valuation.  So, to bring it back to schools, I know people who bought a house decades ago in a nice area with mediocre schools.  They now have school-age kids, and want to live in a district with good schools.  Instead of selling the house they own and buying one in the other district--which they would like to do, since they plan on living there for the next 12 years or so--they rent out the house they own in bad-schools-district and put that money towards the rent they pay on a different house in good-schools-district.  This saves them on the order of $10,000 per year in property taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to point out that Prop 13 actually has a very complicated effect on the housing market in CA.  It does cap property taxes, therefore making higher prices more &#8216;affordable&#8217;&#8230;but it also encourages people to never, ever sell their house, since property taxes are always based on your house&#8217;s original (not even, I believe, inflation-adjusted) valuation.  So, to bring it back to schools, I know people who bought a house decades ago in a nice area with mediocre schools.  They now have school-age kids, and want to live in a district with good schools.  Instead of selling the house they own and buying one in the other district&#8211;which they would like to do, since they plan on living there for the next 12 years or so&#8211;they rent out the house they own in bad-schools-district and put that money towards the rent they pay on a different house in good-schools-district.  This saves them on the order of $10,000 per year in property taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: Sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-261323</link>
		<dc:creator>Sisyphus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-261323</guid>
		<description>PS have you read Jennifer Price&#039;s _Flight Maps_? Someone recommended it to me for my class next quarter and I&#039;m really liking it. I may use the chapter that&#039;s all about the passenger pigeon and early American concepts of nature, and for some reason thought of you and your blog when I was looking at it this weekend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS have you read Jennifer Price&#8217;s _Flight Maps_? Someone recommended it to me for my class next quarter and I&#8217;m really liking it. I may use the chapter that&#8217;s all about the passenger pigeon and early American concepts of nature, and for some reason thought of you and your blog when I was looking at it this weekend.</p>
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		<title>By: Sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-261318</link>
		<dc:creator>Sisyphus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-261318</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Don’t you get it? Whatever happens, it’s always our fault.&lt;/i&gt;

Sounds exactly like how people talk about mothers --- and women who aren&#039;t mothers, as well. Oh, wait!

&lt;i&gt;he’ll always have a reason to beat us pathetic $35,000/yr. schoolteachers.&lt;/i&gt;

I wonder what gender most of those pathetic school teachers are? Ooh ooh, and which gender is more associated with consumption and irrational spending? 

And someone beat me to the Prop 13 reference, which, along with our stupid stupid stupid law that says we need 66 percent to pass an annual budget, is at the root of a lot of our state&#039;s fiscal problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Don’t you get it? Whatever happens, it’s always our fault.</i></p>
<p>Sounds exactly like how people talk about mothers &#8212; and women who aren&#8217;t mothers, as well. Oh, wait!</p>
<p><i>he’ll always have a reason to beat us pathetic $35,000/yr. schoolteachers.</i></p>
<p>I wonder what gender most of those pathetic school teachers are? Ooh ooh, and which gender is more associated with consumption and irrational spending? </p>
<p>And someone beat me to the Prop 13 reference, which, along with our stupid stupid stupid law that says we need 66 percent to pass an annual budget, is at the root of a lot of our state&#8217;s fiscal problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-260907</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-260907</guid>
		<description>ADM--great point, and thanks for bringing up Prop 13, which (along with Ronald Reagan&#039;s terms as governor) did more to destroy public education in California than anything else.  I&#039;m with you on trying to help people save their one and only home, and less worried about those who were speculating with second and third homes.

And Nathan--thanks for the additional data points.  The situation is so complex that there are clearly no single causes, and I take your points about Arizona and Florida.  But, to be clear--I wasn&#039;t arguing that it was money spent per pupil that drove the real estate bubble, but rather test scores.  It&#039;s entirely possible to spend lots of money for not so great outcomes--and equality of money spent is not necessarily equitable.  My argument here isn&#039;t that we need to equalize funding--it&#039;s that we need to pay what it costs to get the results we want.  It will cost a lot more money per pupil to get the same result in (for example) the Denver Public Schools than it will in the tony suburb of Cherry Creek, where nearly all of the children have breakfast, proper clothing, and at least one parent who plays an active role in their children&#039;s educations.  Teachers who have to do their students&#039; laundry, feed them breakfast, and purchase their school supplies for them can&#039;t just jump right in first thing in the morning with the 3 Rs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ADM&#8211;great point, and thanks for bringing up Prop 13, which (along with Ronald Reagan&#8217;s terms as governor) did more to destroy public education in California than anything else.  I&#8217;m with you on trying to help people save their one and only home, and less worried about those who were speculating with second and third homes.</p>
<p>And Nathan&#8211;thanks for the additional data points.  The situation is so complex that there are clearly no single causes, and I take your points about Arizona and Florida.  But, to be clear&#8211;I wasn&#8217;t arguing that it was money spent per pupil that drove the real estate bubble, but rather test scores.  It&#8217;s entirely possible to spend lots of money for not so great outcomes&#8211;and equality of money spent is not necessarily equitable.  My argument here isn&#8217;t that we need to equalize funding&#8211;it&#8217;s that we need to pay what it costs to get the results we want.  It will cost a lot more money per pupil to get the same result in (for example) the Denver Public Schools than it will in the tony suburb of Cherry Creek, where nearly all of the children have breakfast, proper clothing, and at least one parent who plays an active role in their children&#8217;s educations.  Teachers who have to do their students&#8217; laundry, feed them breakfast, and purchase their school supplies for them can&#8217;t just jump right in first thing in the morning with the 3 Rs.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Damned Medievalist</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-260886</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Damned Medievalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-260886</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve also wondered if some of this can also be blamed on the long-term effects of repeals of property tax, like Prop 13 in CA.  I wonder if anybody would have been willing to buy (because I think some of the lenders would still have pushed the loans), had they also been responsible for the sort of taxes that were normal before 1978.

I&#039;m still of the opinion that much of the bailout should go to people stuck in bad mortgages/bad mortgage situations because they&#039;ve since lost their jobs but just buying up the mortgages (if paid off immediately, the banks lost the interest, but the goernment would get it) and re-financing so people can stay in their homes.  That and national health insurance.

The people who got crazy mortgages on second or third homes, or because they were speculating?  I&#039;m not so worried about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve also wondered if some of this can also be blamed on the long-term effects of repeals of property tax, like Prop 13 in CA.  I wonder if anybody would have been willing to buy (because I think some of the lenders would still have pushed the loans), had they also been responsible for the sort of taxes that were normal before 1978.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still of the opinion that much of the bailout should go to people stuck in bad mortgages/bad mortgage situations because they&#8217;ve since lost their jobs but just buying up the mortgages (if paid off immediately, the banks lost the interest, but the goernment would get it) and re-financing so people can stay in their homes.  That and national health insurance.</p>
<p>The people who got crazy mortgages on second or third homes, or because they were speculating?  I&#8217;m not so worried about.</p>
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		<title>By: nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/14/jaccuse-or-i-got-yer-class-warfare-right-here-pal/comment-page-1/#comment-260488</link>
		<dc:creator>nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 04:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3968#comment-260488</guid>
		<description>“The key here is that it was only some neighborhoods that went through the roof, and my guess is that  much of the speculation was driven by the parental frenzy to live in a “good” school district…If public education were adequately funded everywhere, instead of in just some school districts, then maybe we’d not only have better schools for everyone, the cost of housing wouldn’t drive working- and middle-class people into a ditch.”

It is true that the subprime meltdown is concentrated in only “some neighborhoods” something like half of all home foreclosures are taking place in 35 counties.  http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2009-03-05-foreclosure_N.htm A sizable portion of our foreclosures are taking place in states where differences in education spending are not a major consideration when deciding where to buy.  Many of the foreclosures are taking place in retirement states like Florida and Arizona where new home buyers are more concerned with the quality of the golf courses then the quality of the schools.  Also cutting against the school-funding/foreclosure nexus is the fact that California interprets the equal protection clause of its constitution as requiring equal spending per-pupil (see Serrano v. Priest, (Serrano II ), 557 P.2d 929 (1976).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“The key here is that it was only some neighborhoods that went through the roof, and my guess is that  much of the speculation was driven by the parental frenzy to live in a “good” school district…If public education were adequately funded everywhere, instead of in just some school districts, then maybe we’d not only have better schools for everyone, the cost of housing wouldn’t drive working- and middle-class people into a ditch.”</p>
<p>It is true that the subprime meltdown is concentrated in only “some neighborhoods” something like half of all home foreclosures are taking place in 35 counties.  <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2009-03-05-foreclosure_N.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2009-03-05-foreclosure_N.htm</a> A sizable portion of our foreclosures are taking place in states where differences in education spending are not a major consideration when deciding where to buy.  Many of the foreclosures are taking place in retirement states like Florida and Arizona where new home buyers are more concerned with the quality of the golf courses then the quality of the schools.  Also cutting against the school-funding/foreclosure nexus is the fact that California interprets the equal protection clause of its constitution as requiring equal spending per-pupil (see Serrano v. Priest, (Serrano II ), 557 P.2d 929 (1976).</p>
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