<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Lawrence Stone:  classy, classy guy!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:29:24 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Angel</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-2/#comment-263014</link>
		<dc:creator>Angel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-263014</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;To be fair, not everyone here complaining was a man–there was a woman in the previous thread, and I’ve seen other complaints from women, too.&lt;/I&gt;

Oh! I see. My bad. 

&lt;I&gt;But, yes: for some reason, it’s very important to discipline my speech and writing!&lt;/I&gt;

Well, the &quot;tone&quot; argument is a classic in feminist and anti-racist derailing, from what I&#039;ve seen. The best theory I&#039;ve seen is that people with privilege (whites, men, etc.) have the tools (no pun intended?) to do verbal violence without seeming to lift a finger in anger, so that a woman/person of color who calls out &quot;that hurt, you jerk!&quot; ends up seeming like the attacking party, the angry one. We&#039;re acculturated to notice and be offended by minutia, while privileged people can say things that create an oppressive atmosphere, that work toward silencing without seeming angry to others or experiencing much (any?) emotional turmoil themselves.

Getting back on topic. Whether or not Stone intended to contribute to diminishing women&#039;s contributions to history or not, I can&#039;t say. But I believe it&#039;s the responsibility of people with social capital to first, recognize the power they have, and second make sure they&#039;re not abusing it. The fact that it probably didn&#039;t occur to him to do either of those things--and that he was cocooned in a publishing industry that didn&#039;t call him on what he said--does make it pretty obvious how widespread the misogyny was, that someone could be participating in it without perhaps even meaning to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>To be fair, not everyone here complaining was a man–there was a woman in the previous thread, and I’ve seen other complaints from women, too.</i></p>
<p>Oh! I see. My bad. </p>
<p><i>But, yes: for some reason, it’s very important to discipline my speech and writing!</i></p>
<p>Well, the &#8220;tone&#8221; argument is a classic in feminist and anti-racist derailing, from what I&#8217;ve seen. The best theory I&#8217;ve seen is that people with privilege (whites, men, etc.) have the tools (no pun intended?) to do verbal violence without seeming to lift a finger in anger, so that a woman/person of color who calls out &#8220;that hurt, you jerk!&#8221; ends up seeming like the attacking party, the angry one. We&#8217;re acculturated to notice and be offended by minutia, while privileged people can say things that create an oppressive atmosphere, that work toward silencing without seeming angry to others or experiencing much (any?) emotional turmoil themselves.</p>
<p>Getting back on topic. Whether or not Stone intended to contribute to diminishing women&#8217;s contributions to history or not, I can&#8217;t say. But I believe it&#8217;s the responsibility of people with social capital to first, recognize the power they have, and second make sure they&#8217;re not abusing it. The fact that it probably didn&#8217;t occur to him to do either of those things&#8211;and that he was cocooned in a publishing industry that didn&#8217;t call him on what he said&#8211;does make it pretty obvious how widespread the misogyny was, that someone could be participating in it without perhaps even meaning to.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-2/#comment-262891</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-262891</guid>
		<description>Good point, Angel--I just made it myself in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/2009/03/teach-this-book-judith-bennetts-history.html?showComment=1237331460000#c674173584676176782&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;comments on another blog that&#039;s part of our women&#039;s history month book review roundtable&lt;/a&gt;.  To be fair, not everyone here complaining was a man--there was a woman in the previous thread, and I&#039;ve seen other complaints from women, too.  But, yes:  for some reason, it&#039;s very important to discipline my speech and writing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Angel&#8211;I just made it myself in the <a href="http://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/2009/03/teach-this-book-judith-bennetts-history.html?showComment=1237331460000#c674173584676176782" rel="nofollow">comments on another blog that&#8217;s part of our women&#8217;s history month book review roundtable</a>.  To be fair, not everyone here complaining was a man&#8211;there was a woman in the previous thread, and I&#8217;ve seen other complaints from women, too.  But, yes:  for some reason, it&#8217;s very important to discipline my speech and writing!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Angel</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-2/#comment-262859</link>
		<dc:creator>Angel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-262859</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting to me that, rather than listening and replying to the post, so many male commenters here felt more comfortable deploying silencing techniques like policing the &quot;tone&quot; a woman chooses to use, or raising the all important question of whether a given woman likes men enough.

Because of the patriarchal culture we live in, Lawrence Stone was able to wield significant rhetorical power with his &quot;tone&quot; in his article; it was all there for him, ready made as a man. He was even given a large, respectable forum to do it in via the NYTBR. But what&#039;s more important than his easy marshaling of those forces against women who were struggling to create a historical voice for themselves is the fact that, twenty-odd years later, a woman calls him a &quot;tool&quot; on a &lt;I&gt;blog&lt;/I&gt;.

Magnificent derailing skills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting to me that, rather than listening and replying to the post, so many male commenters here felt more comfortable deploying silencing techniques like policing the &#8220;tone&#8221; a woman chooses to use, or raising the all important question of whether a given woman likes men enough.</p>
<p>Because of the patriarchal culture we live in, Lawrence Stone was able to wield significant rhetorical power with his &#8220;tone&#8221; in his article; it was all there for him, ready made as a man. He was even given a large, respectable forum to do it in via the NYTBR. But what&#8217;s more important than his easy marshaling of those forces against women who were struggling to create a historical voice for themselves is the fact that, twenty-odd years later, a woman calls him a &#8220;tool&#8221; on a <i>blog</i>.</p>
<p>Magnificent derailing skills.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: hysperia</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-258688</link>
		<dc:creator>hysperia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-258688</guid>
		<description>He&#039;s just wonderful Historiann!  His Mama and Papa are pretty cool too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s just wonderful Historiann!  His Mama and Papa are pretty cool too.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-258398</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-258398</guid>
		<description>Hysperia--that&#039;s fair enough.  This blog is, shall we say, ecumenical when it comes to people&#039;s chromosomes.  I hope you&#039;re enjoying that new grand-baby boy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hysperia&#8211;that&#8217;s fair enough.  This blog is, shall we say, ecumenical when it comes to people&#8217;s chromosomes.  I hope you&#8217;re enjoying that new grand-baby boy!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: hysperia</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-258380</link>
		<dc:creator>hysperia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-258380</guid>
		<description>I hope you&#039;re not bugged, Historiann, that I&#039;m responding to Graham Cumberland here.  I&#039;ll not take up too much space, just to say, I didn&#039;t intend my &quot;these men&quot; remark to be caustic, not at all.  Just a suggestion about something that truly does puzzle me.  I certainly understand the reason why many men would want to visit this blog but not so much those men who become irritated by feminists so easily.  As for my own blog, I&#039;m afraid I can&#039;t take the &quot;man-hater&quot; epithet too seriously - the &quot;criticism&quot; is intellectually lazy in my view, as well as being untrue.  Do I need to say that I have lots of friends who are men?  lol and thanks for your appropriate response Historiann.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you&#8217;re not bugged, Historiann, that I&#8217;m responding to Graham Cumberland here.  I&#8217;ll not take up too much space, just to say, I didn&#8217;t intend my &#8220;these men&#8221; remark to be caustic, not at all.  Just a suggestion about something that truly does puzzle me.  I certainly understand the reason why many men would want to visit this blog but not so much those men who become irritated by feminists so easily.  As for my own blog, I&#8217;m afraid I can&#8217;t take the &#8220;man-hater&#8221; epithet too seriously &#8211; the &#8220;criticism&#8221; is intellectually lazy in my view, as well as being untrue.  Do I need to say that I have lots of friends who are men?  lol and thanks for your appropriate response Historiann.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-258259</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-258259</guid>
		<description>Graham--you are welcome here, please address your comments about Hysperia&#039;s blog at her blog, not here.  It&#039;s off-topic, and not very cool.  

Now, on topic:  Stone published his review in the NY Review of Books, not in an academic journal.  (Indeed, I doubt that a book review editor in an academic journal would have permitted him to be so condescending in a review--this is one of the problems with non-peer reviewed publications!)  Stone wrote a truly obnoxious book review and published it in the NYRB--that makes him fair game for public criticism.  I criticize all kinds of writers in mainstream publications and other media and public figures here--if you do a search on Lee Siegel, Maureen Dowd, Chris Matthews, you&#039;ll get your hair blown back with some invective in those posts, too.

I appreciate the esteem you have for this non-peer reviewed publication, but I seriously doubt that what I think about a 24 year-old book review really matters to anyone but a few commenters here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graham&#8211;you are welcome here, please address your comments about Hysperia&#8217;s blog at her blog, not here.  It&#8217;s off-topic, and not very cool.  </p>
<p>Now, on topic:  Stone published his review in the NY Review of Books, not in an academic journal.  (Indeed, I doubt that a book review editor in an academic journal would have permitted him to be so condescending in a review&#8211;this is one of the problems with non-peer reviewed publications!)  Stone wrote a truly obnoxious book review and published it in the NYRB&#8211;that makes him fair game for public criticism.  I criticize all kinds of writers in mainstream publications and other media and public figures here&#8211;if you do a search on Lee Siegel, Maureen Dowd, Chris Matthews, you&#8217;ll get your hair blown back with some invective in those posts, too.</p>
<p>I appreciate the esteem you have for this non-peer reviewed publication, but I seriously doubt that what I think about a 24 year-old book review really matters to anyone but a few commenters here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham Cumberland</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-258248</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Cumberland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-258248</guid>
		<description>Hysperia&#039;s reference to &quot;these men&quot; was a caustic remark on my presumption in posting my first comment. I have actually looked at her own blog where, I am sorry to say, her hostility to all men is more than evident. I believe that women have all the human virtues and weaknesses just as men do. We shall get nowhere by engendering hostility between the sexes. I should add that the difference between criticising Lawrence Stone, whose son and daughter are alive and will have been hurt by this interchange, in ad hominem terms and Plato who has been dead for almost 2,500 years, but whose ideas still rightly attract scholarly study should be clear to everyone. I do enjoy reading your blog from time to time, partly because it makes me think, partly because it puts points of view I do not share but which I need to consider.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hysperia&#8217;s reference to &#8220;these men&#8221; was a caustic remark on my presumption in posting my first comment. I have actually looked at her own blog where, I am sorry to say, her hostility to all men is more than evident. I believe that women have all the human virtues and weaknesses just as men do. We shall get nowhere by engendering hostility between the sexes. I should add that the difference between criticising Lawrence Stone, whose son and daughter are alive and will have been hurt by this interchange, in ad hominem terms and Plato who has been dead for almost 2,500 years, but whose ideas still rightly attract scholarly study should be clear to everyone. I do enjoy reading your blog from time to time, partly because it makes me think, partly because it puts points of view I do not share but which I need to consider.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-258033</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-258033</guid>
		<description>Graham--please don&#039;t be insulting.  Hysperia specifically said &quot;these men,&quot; not &quot;all men.&quot;  You&#039;re welcome to your opinion, and maybe you thought you were being cute with the hysperia/hysterical comment, but I don&#039;t brook insults among commenters, especially when they&#039;re gendered slurs.

Thanks for your compliment, although we disagree on Stone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graham&#8211;please don&#8217;t be insulting.  Hysperia specifically said &#8220;these men,&#8221; not &#8220;all men.&#8221;  You&#8217;re welcome to your opinion, and maybe you thought you were being cute with the hysperia/hysterical comment, but I don&#8217;t brook insults among commenters, especially when they&#8217;re gendered slurs.</p>
<p>Thanks for your compliment, although we disagree on Stone.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham Cumberland</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/10/lawrence-stone-classy-classy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-257903</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Cumberland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3885#comment-257903</guid>
		<description>Historiann&#039;s blog is an interesting one. It challenges one&#039;s preconceptions and makes one think again, which is why men read it as well as women. Hysperia should not get hysterical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann&#8217;s blog is an interesting one. It challenges one&#8217;s preconceptions and makes one think again, which is why men read it as well as women. Hysperia should not get hysterical.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
