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	<title>Comments on: Who indeed is afraid of the distant past (and who says it&#8217;s distant, anyway)?  A call to arms.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: And this *isn&#8217;t*&#8230; &#171; A Corner of Tenth-Century Europe</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-414771</link>
		<dc:creator>And this *isn&#8217;t*&#8230; &#171; A Corner of Tenth-Century Europe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] the effect that these anthropological and sociological concepts have had on history of the period; I&#8217;m told that agency is now out of fashion though I continue to find it a very useful concept for my work; materiality is a weak spot for many [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the effect that these anthropological and sociological concepts have had on history of the period; I&#8217;m told that agency is now out of fashion though I continue to find it a very useful concept for my work; materiality is a weak spot for many [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Women&#8217;s History Month wrap-up : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-280948</link>
		<dc:creator>Women&#8217;s History Month wrap-up : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3861#comment-280948</guid>
		<description>[...] Challenge of Feminism.  (Just in case you’ve missed our discussions, here they are:  Parts I, II, III, IV, and V.)  This post is an open thread to solicit your comments on our discussion, and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Challenge of Feminism.  (Just in case you’ve missed our discussions, here they are:  Parts I, II, III, IV, and V.)  This post is an open thread to solicit your comments on our discussion, and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Women&#8217;s History Month Book Club: Bennett talks back at Notorious, Ph.D. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-274360</link>
		<dc:creator>Women&#8217;s History Month Book Club: Bennett talks back at Notorious, Ph.D. : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3861#comment-274360</guid>
		<description>[...] Bennett&#8217;s comments about our discussion of her book this month.  She really disagrees with my generational analysis, claiming that&#8217;s not what she meant at all, and she wants us to talk more about her concept [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bennett&#8217;s comments about our discussion of her book this month.  She really disagrees with my generational analysis, claiming that&#8217;s not what she meant at all, and she wants us to talk more about her concept [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Women&#8217;s History Month Book Club: Part the Fourth at Blogenspiel : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-267786</link>
		<dc:creator>Women&#8217;s History Month Book Club: Part the Fourth at Blogenspiel : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3861#comment-267786</guid>
		<description>[...] case you missed all of the excitement so far, you can see part I here, part II here, and part III here.  Next week, we&#8217;ll all head back to Notorious Ph.D., Girl Scholar for a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] case you missed all of the excitement so far, you can see part I here, part II here, and part III here.  Next week, we&#8217;ll all head back to Notorious Ph.D., Girl Scholar for a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scattered Links - 3/16/2009 &#171; history-ing</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-262456</link>
		<dc:creator>Scattered Links - 3/16/2009 &#171; history-ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3861#comment-262456</guid>
		<description>[...] politics be historical? Should history be political? Then Historiann kept the ball rolling with Who indeed is afraid of the distant past (and who says it&#8217;s distant, anyway)? A call to arms. This week Claire Potter at Tenured Radical posted part three, Teach This [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] politics be historical? Should history be political? Then Historiann kept the ball rolling with Who indeed is afraid of the distant past (and who says it&#8217;s distant, anyway)? A call to arms. This week Claire Potter at Tenured Radical posted part three, Teach This [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Women&#8217;s History Month book club: Judith Bennett&#8217;s &#8220;History Matters&#8221; Part III at Tenured Radical : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-261784</link>
		<dc:creator>Women&#8217;s History Month book club: Judith Bennett&#8217;s &#8220;History Matters&#8221; Part III at Tenured Radical : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3861#comment-261784</guid>
		<description>[...] Tenured Radical has posted her essay for Part III of our discussion of Judith Bennett&#8217;s History Matters, where she discusses premodern history, the academic job market&#8217;s bias towards the modern, and Bennett&#8217;s call for women&#8217;s historians to write more &#8220;lesbian-like&#8221; history.  The conversation is happening there now, so come on over and join in the fun!  (If you haven&#8217;t read them already, see part I by Notorious, Ph.D. here, and see my contribution, part II, here.)  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Tenured Radical has posted her essay for Part III of our discussion of Judith Bennett&#8217;s History Matters, where she discusses premodern history, the academic job market&#8217;s bias towards the modern, and Bennett&#8217;s call for women&#8217;s historians to write more &#8220;lesbian-like&#8221; history.  The conversation is happening there now, so come on over and join in the fun!  (If you haven&#8217;t read them already, see part I by Notorious, Ph.D. here, and see my contribution, part II, here.)  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Veleda</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-260996</link>
		<dc:creator>Veleda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3861#comment-260996</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed the discussion of the stampede toward Agency, a development that dismayed me insofar as 1) the feminist historians i respect did not minimize agency to begin with. 2) it&#039;s crucial to acknowledge the very real barriers women face/d. 3) the way &quot;negotiation&quot; got elevated (typically) bypassed realistically  accounting for inequalities, severe constraints, and outright violence. 4) &quot;we don&#039;t want to be victims&quot; often turned into &quot;we don&#039;t want to see victims,&quot; or as i would rather put it, oppression. Whatever its complexities...

However! the &quot;good continuities&quot; that Notorious PhD flags are important. Yes, absolutely, even within those very bleak timescapes. My women&#039;s history looks for resistance and solidarity and female spheres of power within patriarchal societies. One rich area I&#039;ve been mining for years is women&#039;s spiritual leadership and sodalities. These bridge across all kinds of social systems from the most patriarchal where they are prohibited or repressed, to more egalitarian systems which have formal female offices and organizations--and all the other societies which fall between those extremes. I&#039;m thinking Beguines and beatas, Henan sworn sisterhoods maintained via the Nüshu women&#039;s script, Iroquois gantowisas and Cherokee Beloved Women, Chewa women&#039;s sodalities and female eldership posts, Brazilian maes de santo as socio-political forces, and the medicine women who led indigenous resistance movements in California, Uganda, Somalia, and other colonized countries. Even the Thesmophoria, in spite of  &quot;negotiations&quot; that forced it into compliance with masculine state goals, as has been noted. We have to look at patterns of collective female power, without missing how that may be cut into or mediated by male dominance--or whacked down. Further, how it is situated in terms of class and ethnicity, and all the complex interactions that make history.

In my experience, the more local and particular we get, the more interesting stuff surfaces. Folk religion is a very rich vein, and oral tradition, including that written down by colonials like Sahagún. 

Or even the inquisitorial archives in Friuli that Ginzburg studied. The benandante (that&#039;s not a typo, but the female plural) are an instructive case, because we can see how a regional folk culture was riven along gender lines, by outside forces and then from within. The male benandanti turned into witch-finders, and the female benandante became the accused, via the torture trials of the late 16th and early 17th century. But before that? the depositions show a female allegiance to the benandante that persisted, even under duress. We aren&#039;t going to get the same level of detail beyond the written record, of course. 

But we do get glimpses from the witch trials of women like Gabrina degl&#039;Albetti and Jeanne de Brigue and Scudder of Scotland who dealt in sexual politics, battery and desertion and things of great concern to women in their communities. It&#039;s not all victims, resistors are visible there too, even if they end up going to the stake, or like Gabrina have their tongues cut out.

Looking forward to the next installment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed the discussion of the stampede toward Agency, a development that dismayed me insofar as 1) the feminist historians i respect did not minimize agency to begin with. 2) it&#8217;s crucial to acknowledge the very real barriers women face/d. 3) the way &#8220;negotiation&#8221; got elevated (typically) bypassed realistically  accounting for inequalities, severe constraints, and outright violence. 4) &#8220;we don&#8217;t want to be victims&#8221; often turned into &#8220;we don&#8217;t want to see victims,&#8221; or as i would rather put it, oppression. Whatever its complexities&#8230;</p>
<p>However! the &#8220;good continuities&#8221; that Notorious PhD flags are important. Yes, absolutely, even within those very bleak timescapes. My women&#8217;s history looks for resistance and solidarity and female spheres of power within patriarchal societies. One rich area I&#8217;ve been mining for years is women&#8217;s spiritual leadership and sodalities. These bridge across all kinds of social systems from the most patriarchal where they are prohibited or repressed, to more egalitarian systems which have formal female offices and organizations&#8211;and all the other societies which fall between those extremes. I&#8217;m thinking Beguines and beatas, Henan sworn sisterhoods maintained via the Nüshu women&#8217;s script, Iroquois gantowisas and Cherokee Beloved Women, Chewa women&#8217;s sodalities and female eldership posts, Brazilian maes de santo as socio-political forces, and the medicine women who led indigenous resistance movements in California, Uganda, Somalia, and other colonized countries. Even the Thesmophoria, in spite of  &#8220;negotiations&#8221; that forced it into compliance with masculine state goals, as has been noted. We have to look at patterns of collective female power, without missing how that may be cut into or mediated by male dominance&#8211;or whacked down. Further, how it is situated in terms of class and ethnicity, and all the complex interactions that make history.</p>
<p>In my experience, the more local and particular we get, the more interesting stuff surfaces. Folk religion is a very rich vein, and oral tradition, including that written down by colonials like Sahagún. </p>
<p>Or even the inquisitorial archives in Friuli that Ginzburg studied. The benandante (that&#8217;s not a typo, but the female plural) are an instructive case, because we can see how a regional folk culture was riven along gender lines, by outside forces and then from within. The male benandanti turned into witch-finders, and the female benandante became the accused, via the torture trials of the late 16th and early 17th century. But before that? the depositions show a female allegiance to the benandante that persisted, even under duress. We aren&#8217;t going to get the same level of detail beyond the written record, of course. </p>
<p>But we do get glimpses from the witch trials of women like Gabrina degl&#8217;Albetti and Jeanne de Brigue and Scudder of Scotland who dealt in sexual politics, battery and desertion and things of great concern to women in their communities. It&#8217;s not all victims, resistors are visible there too, even if they end up going to the stake, or like Gabrina have their tongues cut out.</p>
<p>Looking forward to the next installment.</p>
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		<title>By: Veleda</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-260291</link>
		<dc:creator>Veleda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3861#comment-260291</guid>
		<description>This discussion to me is better than chocolate. Can&#039;t wait to read Bennett&#039;s book; i saw excerpts and liked them. I have been protesting the passing-over that women&#039;s history is getting in Women&#039;s Studies for some time now, especially anything more than a century or two ago, and it&#039;s great to hear from other women historians who understand the importance of the subject. 

On the other blog, now closed, Notorious PhD wrote:
&quot;I now see the study of women in particular as a way of uncovering information and introducing perspectives that can in turn be used to reshape the master narrative itself.&quot;

And in fact it has done that. We&#039;re not all the way there, not by a long shot, but we have won, finally, acknowledgment (from many quarters, at least) that a study that ignores women is inadequate, pure and simple. It&#039;s finally hitting them in their reputations, and that makes the recalcitrant sit up and take notice. Of course many have welcomed the inclusion as well.

I like the comments that were made about how women&#039;s history strengthened the hand of social history, and would add that the same is true for interdisciplinarity. Not only because of feminists studies, of course, but also Africana and all the other intersecting subjects whose scholars understood the necessity of reweaving knowledge from all the humanities to get a broader picture. 

What concerns me is the way that the theoretical turn in women&#039;s studies has led to near-abandonment of the field of history. Claims seem to require no substantial documentation. Earlier there was discussion of whether there was a &quot;golden age&quot; of women&#039;s history. I don&#039;t have such a rosy view as that, for reasons i won&#039;t go into now, but there was at least a strong sense of solidarity in common enterprise, on an uphill climb, and most importantly, a deep interest in what women&#039;s analysis would look like. Hearing women theorize about what all the data meant, and especially about the patterns. 

What i saw happen somewhere in the 90s was an elevation of male theorists and masculine prestige. Foucault, Derrida, even Freud. Somer Broddrib and Tania Modleisky called it. At the same time, the feminist theory that had been done so far, and especailly words like patriarchy, acquired a heavy stigma. It&#039;s one thing to generalize about The Patriarchy at every turn, as has been noted here, and another altogether to shrink from ever using the term--or male supremacy, or male dominance, or similar descriptors.  Sometimes you need a word that spells it out. I understand the reasons for timidity; there are real costs. But this goes directly to what you can say--or what you are not saying because of those consequences.  

Gotta go. More later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussion to me is better than chocolate. Can&#8217;t wait to read Bennett&#8217;s book; i saw excerpts and liked them. I have been protesting the passing-over that women&#8217;s history is getting in Women&#8217;s Studies for some time now, especially anything more than a century or two ago, and it&#8217;s great to hear from other women historians who understand the importance of the subject. </p>
<p>On the other blog, now closed, Notorious PhD wrote:<br />
&#8220;I now see the study of women in particular as a way of uncovering information and introducing perspectives that can in turn be used to reshape the master narrative itself.&#8221;</p>
<p>And in fact it has done that. We&#8217;re not all the way there, not by a long shot, but we have won, finally, acknowledgment (from many quarters, at least) that a study that ignores women is inadequate, pure and simple. It&#8217;s finally hitting them in their reputations, and that makes the recalcitrant sit up and take notice. Of course many have welcomed the inclusion as well.</p>
<p>I like the comments that were made about how women&#8217;s history strengthened the hand of social history, and would add that the same is true for interdisciplinarity. Not only because of feminists studies, of course, but also Africana and all the other intersecting subjects whose scholars understood the necessity of reweaving knowledge from all the humanities to get a broader picture. </p>
<p>What concerns me is the way that the theoretical turn in women&#8217;s studies has led to near-abandonment of the field of history. Claims seem to require no substantial documentation. Earlier there was discussion of whether there was a &#8220;golden age&#8221; of women&#8217;s history. I don&#8217;t have such a rosy view as that, for reasons i won&#8217;t go into now, but there was at least a strong sense of solidarity in common enterprise, on an uphill climb, and most importantly, a deep interest in what women&#8217;s analysis would look like. Hearing women theorize about what all the data meant, and especially about the patterns. </p>
<p>What i saw happen somewhere in the 90s was an elevation of male theorists and masculine prestige. Foucault, Derrida, even Freud. Somer Broddrib and Tania Modleisky called it. At the same time, the feminist theory that had been done so far, and especailly words like patriarchy, acquired a heavy stigma. It&#8217;s one thing to generalize about The Patriarchy at every turn, as has been noted here, and another altogether to shrink from ever using the term&#8211;or male supremacy, or male dominance, or similar descriptors.  Sometimes you need a word that spells it out. I understand the reasons for timidity; there are real costs. But this goes directly to what you can say&#8211;or what you are not saying because of those consequences.  </p>
<p>Gotta go. More later.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Damned Medievalist</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-260061</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Damned Medievalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Magistra, I think that in the UK the system is especially difficult for people who don&#039;t take the traditional path, and most especially for women who don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Magistra, I think that in the UK the system is especially difficult for people who don&#8217;t take the traditional path, and most especially for women who don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Belle</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2009/03/09/who-indeed-is-afraid-of-the-distant-past-and-who-says-its-distant-anyway-a-call-to-arms/comment-page-3/#comment-260031</link>
		<dc:creator>Belle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=3861#comment-260031</guid>
		<description>Crap. I didn&#039;t read Sterling&#039;s 1/29 post. His new blog: phdinhistory.org. Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crap. I didn&#8217;t read Sterling&#8217;s 1/29 post. His new blog: phdinhistory.org. Sorry.</p>
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