Comments on: Gender, youth, culpability, and responsibility http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/ History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present Fri, 19 Sep 2014 13:41:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.9.2 By: grandoc http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-145411 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:39:43 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-145411 Almost 50 years ago my all male fraternity at Ivy League North was unable ( along with Wisconsin, UCLA and some other top schools) to get the national office to delete discriminatory admission clauses – and the college forced our frat to become “local”. We did a lot of hard partying on weekends, but did play bridge and poker during the week. We contributed zip to the local community. When the college went coed, women joined the frat. When I looked at the fratso or sofrat website several years ago, I was surprised by the number of programs the the group was sponsoring – battered women. prisoner literacy, Big Brother/Sister, school tutoring. Actually, I was embarrassed. Some of this altruism may have been administration-mandated but I think a large chunk was due to the women saying “Guys- we really shouldn’t sit around and drink 24/7. Grandoc. PS The college student in the picture belonged to AD, my school.

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By: Drunk History, vol. 3: women’s history edition : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144616 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:00:51 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144616 [...] chips, and guacamole.)  Since we’ve been debating some heavy topics lately like displays of sexual dominance, hostile work environments, and public boob grabs, I thought many of you might appreciate this very [...]

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By: Historiann http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144614 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:00:15 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144614 Hmmm–that’s an interesting inversion of reality. But, I guess it also reflects reality in that white men’s interests are always defended (or advanced) at the expense of everyone else. As in, the real problem with rape is that so many men are falsely accused, or the real problem with racial harrassment is that so many white people are falsely charged with it.

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By: Professor Zero http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144609 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 21:56:39 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144609 The neighbor tells me that it is a lot more offensive to hang white guys in effigy than anyone else. If it happens to anyone else it is just a joke and people need to have a sense of humor. If it happens to a white guy it is terrorizing and a crime.

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By: Historiann http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144501 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:34:58 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144501 Sq., I don’t think this is a counter opinion. I think you make good points about your circus life and how that makes you feel differently about the public/private split. (This post was an argument that women and working-class men are held to different standards of behavior than middle- and upper-class men. Maybe you meant to post this comment on the thread below?)

I can see your point of view, but I would bet that your performances don’t involve displays of sexual aggression–either against a person or an image of a person. (I may be wrong–this is just a guess.) I would have no problem with Favreau and “Obama Staff” guy photographed cavorting with a cardboard Hillary Clinton minus the boob grab and the tongue in the ear. (I personally don’t mind the beer they’re offering her, but others might disagree.) If they just had their arms around the cardboard cutout–that would be fine, too. So, I think the content matters.

I think you’re right that the publicity makes all of the difference here. I think it was stupid and unprofessional for him to pose for such a picture, knowing that he may be a high-level Obama administration appointee. (And I think the photo was clearly posed–the camera before him probably inspired the pose he displays. At least, I think that’s the likeliest explanation.)

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By: squadratomagico http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144498 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:25:58 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144498 I’m going to wade in, reluctantly, with a counter-opinion.

I find the photo offensive, but for me the real issue is how it got onto the Facebook page. In my opinion, people — even people in the public eye — are entitled to do offensive things in their private lives. I, for example, in my free time, engage in various behaviors of which many people would strenuously disapprove. I could imagine the parents of some of my students, for instance, disapproving of my attendance at Burning Man, and regarding the things that go on there as extremely offensive and immoral. My circus is less controversial, but certainly people have objected to us for being too edgy; one mother complained to the Tourist Trap authorities about our show, after she found out that our main gig was at a gay nightclub. The substance of that complaint was: “How could you hire these people for a free, family show, when they mainly perform at a club for perverts and queers?” She was as outraged about us, as you are about that photo.

My main point, however, is not that there are different opinions about what constitutes offensive behavior. I am happy to stipulate that the photo depicts offensive behavior: it is the visual equivalent of calling her a c*nt. Rather, my response to the outcry here is that I don’t find it either possible or desirable to police private behavior. Everyone is entitled to make an ass of him- or herself, AND even to be immoral and offensive, in the privacy of their own homes, at private events, etc. In my view, regardless of the nature of the offense, one’s private behavior is just that: private. I want my right to be offensive and immoral in private, without that being grounds for destroying my professional life; therefore, I will give him the same rights.

However (and this is a key point) once the behavior migrates from an ephemeral moment at a private event, to a publicly-memorialized photo proudly displayed on a networking site, THEN it crosses a line, as it no longer is private behavior. For me, the main issue is how it got to Facebook, and what level of responsibility he had for it’s appearance on his page.

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By: Ted http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144485 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:43:56 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144485 Hey, you’re welcome! I’ve been reading your blog for a few weeks now — as a lurker, obviously.

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By: Historiann http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144469 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:16:49 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144469 Exactly! Anyway, I’m glad you stopped by to comment.

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By: Ted http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144468 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:15:44 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144468 “Thanks, Ted–or should I say, “thanks?”

Yeah, maybe “thanks” isn’t the right word. Perhaps something more like a Keanu Reeves’ “Whoa.”

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By: The Epistle of Miranda the MBA, 1 Manhattanites, chapter I: Yea verily I say unto you, this sucks : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/07/gender-youth-culpability-and-responsibility/comment-page-1/#comment-144427 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:43:46 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/?p=2247#comment-144427 [...] sign of entitled behavior, but I haven’t fully unpacked that yet.)  Ed. note:  I think commenter ej made this point on the previous post here–but there’s surely more to say on this [...]

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