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	<title>Comments on: Thanks, stranger, and welcome little stranger</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: The Tangled Web of Gestational Surrogacy &#171; Kittywampus</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-281197</link>
		<dc:creator>The Tangled Web of Gestational Surrogacy &#171; Kittywampus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-281197</guid>
		<description>[...] 7, 2008 by Sungold     Historiann drew my attention to a fascinating essay in last weekend&#8217;s New York Times Magazine by Alex [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 7, 2008 by Sungold     Historiann drew my attention to a fascinating essay in last weekend&#8217;s New York Times Magazine by Alex [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-142912</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-142912</guid>
		<description>Academama, thanks for stopping by to comment.  Sorry I&#039;ve neglected this thread for a few days.  Your description of your through process about egg donation is fascinating.  When those ads went up on college campuses in the mid-1990s, I was already close to &quot;over the hill&quot; to be a donor, but I considered it, too, although not as seriously as you.  But as you point out, the experience is invasive, time-consuming, and then there&#039;s the whole concept of a person genetically related to you that you&#039;ll never meet.  That was a hurdle for me, as for you, especially re: your own child.  

I agree with DV that mystifying blood and biology is primitive thinking.  And yet, I feel very proprietary about my own eggies.  I know exactly what has become of every single one of them, and I like it that way.  I don&#039;t think this is because I am selfishly attached to my DNA--I think it has more to do with my control issues--but I can&#039;t deny that the DNA may be a part of it.  DV needs to write her memior/novel about the fertility clinic so that I can review it here and we can have a book club discussion!

DV, let me know if you want to do a guest post here someday, OK?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Academama, thanks for stopping by to comment.  Sorry I&#8217;ve neglected this thread for a few days.  Your description of your through process about egg donation is fascinating.  When those ads went up on college campuses in the mid-1990s, I was already close to &#8220;over the hill&#8221; to be a donor, but I considered it, too, although not as seriously as you.  But as you point out, the experience is invasive, time-consuming, and then there&#8217;s the whole concept of a person genetically related to you that you&#8217;ll never meet.  That was a hurdle for me, as for you, especially re: your own child.  </p>
<p>I agree with DV that mystifying blood and biology is primitive thinking.  And yet, I feel very proprietary about my own eggies.  I know exactly what has become of every single one of them, and I like it that way.  I don&#8217;t think this is because I am selfishly attached to my DNA&#8211;I think it has more to do with my control issues&#8211;but I can&#8217;t deny that the DNA may be a part of it.  DV needs to write her memior/novel about the fertility clinic so that I can review it here and we can have a book club discussion!</p>
<p>DV, let me know if you want to do a guest post here someday, OK?</p>
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		<title>By: DV</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-142449</link>
		<dc:creator>DV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 06:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-142449</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the suggestion, Historiann. I think I might have an ax to grind and that&#039;s a good way to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the suggestion, Historiann. I think I might have an ax to grind and that&#8217;s a good way to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: AcadeMama</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-141604</link>
		<dc:creator>AcadeMama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 13:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-141604</guid>
		<description>It wasn&#039;t long after I started graduate school before I seriously considered donating/selling my eggs to earn money. By &quot;seriously considered,&quot; I mean that I&#039;d filled out all the paperwork and completed a phone interview. It turned out that I was &quot;perfect&quot; for donor status: mid-20&#039;s, white, tall, slim, healthy, pretty, and I&#039;d already had one successful pregnancy. They basically considered me the ideal specimen for the process.

The reason I even thought of doing this? To pay off credit card debt and supplement student loans. I was a single parent, working on my MA, living five states away from my family. The ONLY thing that prevented my from doing it was that the clinic wasn&#039;t geographically close enough for me to rush over for temperature checks, harvesting, etc. when my hormone tests were positive. Further, the only thing that stopped me from going the route of surrogacy was that the child I already had wasn&#039;t really old enough to understand, and I didn&#039;t want her being confused about the process.

Make no mistake, I was fully aware of the class implications throughout all the paperwork, applications, questionnaires, etc. I knew I was virtually pimping myself out; I may not have been selling sex, but I was selling pieces of myself nonetheless. What&#039;s even worse? As I sit here now, less than one year away from earning my PhD, I&#039;d absolutely consider doing it again. With a academic husband who brings his own share of student loan debt to the table, this is the only kind of pimping that doesn&#039;t come with the stigma of being a whore. But I know that&#039;s what it is: a reproductive whore of sorts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It wasn&#8217;t long after I started graduate school before I seriously considered donating/selling my eggs to earn money. By &#8220;seriously considered,&#8221; I mean that I&#8217;d filled out all the paperwork and completed a phone interview. It turned out that I was &#8220;perfect&#8221; for donor status: mid-20&#8242;s, white, tall, slim, healthy, pretty, and I&#8217;d already had one successful pregnancy. They basically considered me the ideal specimen for the process.</p>
<p>The reason I even thought of doing this? To pay off credit card debt and supplement student loans. I was a single parent, working on my MA, living five states away from my family. The ONLY thing that prevented my from doing it was that the clinic wasn&#8217;t geographically close enough for me to rush over for temperature checks, harvesting, etc. when my hormone tests were positive. Further, the only thing that stopped me from going the route of surrogacy was that the child I already had wasn&#8217;t really old enough to understand, and I didn&#8217;t want her being confused about the process.</p>
<p>Make no mistake, I was fully aware of the class implications throughout all the paperwork, applications, questionnaires, etc. I knew I was virtually pimping myself out; I may not have been selling sex, but I was selling pieces of myself nonetheless. What&#8217;s even worse? As I sit here now, less than one year away from earning my PhD, I&#8217;d absolutely consider doing it again. With a academic husband who brings his own share of student loan debt to the table, this is the only kind of pimping that doesn&#8217;t come with the stigma of being a whore. But I know that&#8217;s what it is: a reproductive whore of sorts.</p>
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		<title>By: Fratguy</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-141138</link>
		<dc:creator>Fratguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 20:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-141138</guid>
		<description>This is all well and good, but, I just want to know where the market is for surrogate penises ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all well and good, but, I just want to know where the market is for surrogate penises ?</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-141039</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-141039</guid>
		<description>Buzz--well said.  I&#039;m kind of shocked that she&#039;s so open about her life and motivations, and I was impressed in a way that she was.  As Geoff said upthread, &quot;clearly she was exposing herself in many ways to criticism, and that is probably for me her redeeming feature.&quot;  If I were in her shoes, I would have written a much more self-flattering and sanitized version of the story, so I kind of admire her moxie for telling it as she experienced it.  But as you say--she doesn&#039;t appear to have a great deal of insight into her own &quot;unexamined life.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buzz&#8211;well said.  I&#8217;m kind of shocked that she&#8217;s so open about her life and motivations, and I was impressed in a way that she was.  As Geoff said upthread, &#8220;clearly she was exposing herself in many ways to criticism, and that is probably for me her redeeming feature.&#8221;  If I were in her shoes, I would have written a much more self-flattering and sanitized version of the story, so I kind of admire her moxie for telling it as she experienced it.  But as you say&#8211;she doesn&#8217;t appear to have a great deal of insight into her own &#8220;unexamined life.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-141029</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-141029</guid>
		<description>When I finally got to read the original article, my overriding impression was that Kuczynski did seem quite frank, but otherwise she seemed to live a profoundly unexamined life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I finally got to read the original article, my overriding impression was that Kuczynski did seem quite frank, but otherwise she seemed to live a profoundly unexamined life.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-140943</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 14:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-140943</guid>
		<description>That is what I&#039;m suggesting and it was just a very weirdly worded email.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is what I&#8217;m suggesting and it was just a very weirdly worded email.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-140937</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-140937</guid>
		<description>DV, I remember you writing about your experience at a fertility clinic in comments on an earlier post.  Have you considered writing about it in detail--in a magazine article or a book?  I suppose you could also use it for fiction writing, too.  Anyway, I don&#039;t think you&#039;re on a tangent at all--that&#039;s a very interesting connection you&#039;ve seen between the virginity post and thread and this post and thread.  You&#039;re right:  it&#039;s all very primitive and elementally patriarchal, isn&#039;t it, this drive for bio children and the drive to ensure that people outside of the bloodline aren&#039;t inheriting?  This is why I think queer families are great--they&#039;re the families that pose the greatest challenges to the patriarchal bloodlines definition of family.  

Kuczynski seems to fetishize the comingling of genes as a symbol of her and her husband&#039;s love.  I wonder too if she feared that her husband (who had 6 children from 2 other marriages) wouldn&#039;t be as committed to this child if it wasn&#039;t biologically related to him.  I think DV, unless I&#039;m mistaken, that you&#039;ve written about how it may be men who are more driven to pass on their genes, whereas many fertility clinic mothers would be happy to adopt but for their partners&#039; determination...or am I imagining a conversation we never had?

Geoff makes very interesting points too, especially about the toll work takes on our bodies.  Since I&#039;ve got a cushy office job, I forget that there are others who don&#039;t!  Perhaps Rayven will weigh in again, but I&#039;d say that your union guys have probably sustained greater damage than surrogate mothers do, simply because surrogacy isn&#039;t something that people can do for decades.  And, it seems like the women who volunteer for surrogacy are people who do pregnancy really well--there are people who are really good at it, and who even enjoy it.  But even then, there&#039;s a limit I think to the number of times one could serve as a surrogate.

And, Mary:  wow.  Actually $100 ain&#039;t bad, but I guess what you&#039;re suggesting is that the wine-pouring was an inappropriate solicitation between profs and grad students.  That&#039;s also a relationship which it&#039;s better perhaps to keep un-commercial?  (Unless the work in question is school- or professionally related, that is.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DV, I remember you writing about your experience at a fertility clinic in comments on an earlier post.  Have you considered writing about it in detail&#8211;in a magazine article or a book?  I suppose you could also use it for fiction writing, too.  Anyway, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re on a tangent at all&#8211;that&#8217;s a very interesting connection you&#8217;ve seen between the virginity post and thread and this post and thread.  You&#8217;re right:  it&#8217;s all very primitive and elementally patriarchal, isn&#8217;t it, this drive for bio children and the drive to ensure that people outside of the bloodline aren&#8217;t inheriting?  This is why I think queer families are great&#8211;they&#8217;re the families that pose the greatest challenges to the patriarchal bloodlines definition of family.  </p>
<p>Kuczynski seems to fetishize the comingling of genes as a symbol of her and her husband&#8217;s love.  I wonder too if she feared that her husband (who had 6 children from 2 other marriages) wouldn&#8217;t be as committed to this child if it wasn&#8217;t biologically related to him.  I think DV, unless I&#8217;m mistaken, that you&#8217;ve written about how it may be men who are more driven to pass on their genes, whereas many fertility clinic mothers would be happy to adopt but for their partners&#8217; determination&#8230;or am I imagining a conversation we never had?</p>
<p>Geoff makes very interesting points too, especially about the toll work takes on our bodies.  Since I&#8217;ve got a cushy office job, I forget that there are others who don&#8217;t!  Perhaps Rayven will weigh in again, but I&#8217;d say that your union guys have probably sustained greater damage than surrogate mothers do, simply because surrogacy isn&#8217;t something that people can do for decades.  And, it seems like the women who volunteer for surrogacy are people who do pregnancy really well&#8211;there are people who are really good at it, and who even enjoy it.  But even then, there&#8217;s a limit I think to the number of times one could serve as a surrogate.</p>
<p>And, Mary:  wow.  Actually $100 ain&#8217;t bad, but I guess what you&#8217;re suggesting is that the wine-pouring was an inappropriate solicitation between profs and grad students.  That&#8217;s also a relationship which it&#8217;s better perhaps to keep un-commercial?  (Unless the work in question is school- or professionally related, that is.)</p>
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		<title>By: DV</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/12/04/thanks-stranger-and-welcome-little-stranger/comment-page-1/#comment-140881</link>
		<dc:creator>DV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=2168#comment-140881</guid>
		<description>This is a great topic.  The post and the story raise another set of questions for me that we haven&#039;t touched on - the overarching significance of biology.  I temped for an unbearable fertility doctor years ago and watched lots of couples go through each of the stages this story described - except adoption.  Then - as now - I couldn&#039;t wrap my head around the assumption each couple subscribed to a belief that a child who shares some of their genes is more &quot;their child&quot; than an adopted one. So they came back again and again trying for that kind of child. Biology (and birth) is a powerful connection, but what drove this woman to decide that she had to have a genetic connection to her child, for it to be her child. Kuczynski even points to the possessiveness of biology when describing the seeming &quot;challenges&quot; to surrogacy because in New York she would have to &quot;adopt &lt;i&gt;our&lt;/i&gt; biological child from Cathy.&quot;

And, if you&#039;ll permit a tangent, I can&#039;t help but see parallels in this to a post of yours from a few weeks ago, the one about virginity. The discussion there centered on the state of (and language of) virginity, but it prompted me to consider the historical significance of virginity - as in, why did it matter.  This led me, likewise, to puzzle over the significance of biology; as in, families wanted to ensure their particular genes persisted (and took charge of their property).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great topic.  The post and the story raise another set of questions for me that we haven&#8217;t touched on &#8211; the overarching significance of biology.  I temped for an unbearable fertility doctor years ago and watched lots of couples go through each of the stages this story described &#8211; except adoption.  Then &#8211; as now &#8211; I couldn&#8217;t wrap my head around the assumption each couple subscribed to a belief that a child who shares some of their genes is more &#8220;their child&#8221; than an adopted one. So they came back again and again trying for that kind of child. Biology (and birth) is a powerful connection, but what drove this woman to decide that she had to have a genetic connection to her child, for it to be her child. Kuczynski even points to the possessiveness of biology when describing the seeming &#8220;challenges&#8221; to surrogacy because in New York she would have to &#8220;adopt <i>our</i> biological child from Cathy.&#8221;</p>
<p>And, if you&#8217;ll permit a tangent, I can&#8217;t help but see parallels in this to a post of yours from a few weeks ago, the one about virginity. The discussion there centered on the state of (and language of) virginity, but it prompted me to consider the historical significance of virginity &#8211; as in, why did it matter.  This led me, likewise, to puzzle over the significance of biology; as in, families wanted to ensure their particular genes persisted (and took charge of their property).</p>
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