<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Intro to Speech Comm:  No girls allowed?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 13:35:09 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shinhao Li</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-95588</link>
		<dc:creator>Shinhao Li</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 05:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-95588</guid>
		<description>Historiann:

Yes, absolutely, parents have most of the blame. It&#039;s just very sad that we are now at the point where we have all-male classes, not so that men can fight and compete without the restraint that female presence brings, but as a protected environment, because being with women is somehow &lt;i&gt;too scary&lt;/i&gt;. 

That is astonishing. The purpose of all-male education is to compete with even greater ferocity, to win respect from peers and male authority, and to develop camaraderie. This turns everything upside-down - an all-male education as a way to avoid criticism, avoid competition, and avoid risk!

(Incidentally, an all-male education also does wonders for respect towards women. Women were goddesses to us back then.)

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Do college men have a paralyzing fear of public speaking before co-ed audiences?  Do men perform better when women are not in the classroom?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Hmm...aren&#039;t these the exact arguments used to justify all-female educational environments? Not that I disagree...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann:</p>
<p>Yes, absolutely, parents have most of the blame. It&#8217;s just very sad that we are now at the point where we have all-male classes, not so that men can fight and compete without the restraint that female presence brings, but as a protected environment, because being with women is somehow <i>too scary</i>. </p>
<p>That is astonishing. The purpose of all-male education is to compete with even greater ferocity, to win respect from peers and male authority, and to develop camaraderie. This turns everything upside-down &#8211; an all-male education as a way to avoid criticism, avoid competition, and avoid risk!</p>
<p>(Incidentally, an all-male education also does wonders for respect towards women. Women were goddesses to us back then.)</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Do college men have a paralyzing fear of public speaking before co-ed audiences?  Do men perform better when women are not in the classroom?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Hmm&#8230;aren&#8217;t these the exact arguments used to justify all-female educational environments? Not that I disagree&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-95172</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-95172</guid>
		<description>Shinhao Li--I think many of the feminists here would agree with you that if there&#039;s a &quot;boy crisis&quot; among white, middle-class and upper middle-class boys, it&#039;s one of their parents&#039; own making.  I&#039;m rather shocked at how little is expected of boys these days.  I think it&#039;s unfortunate for the straight girls who will one day have to shop for marriage partners among that crowd!

That said, I also have a number of fine men in my classes.  I have only five male students this term, and they&#039;re all on the ball, are doing their work, and are toeing the line.  They might turn out OK ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shinhao Li&#8211;I think many of the feminists here would agree with you that if there&#8217;s a &#8220;boy crisis&#8221; among white, middle-class and upper middle-class boys, it&#8217;s one of their parents&#8217; own making.  I&#8217;m rather shocked at how little is expected of boys these days.  I think it&#8217;s unfortunate for the straight girls who will one day have to shop for marriage partners among that crowd!</p>
<p>That said, I also have a number of fine men in my classes.  I have only five male students this term, and they&#8217;re all on the ball, are doing their work, and are toeing the line.  They might turn out OK <img src='http://www.historiann.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shinhao Li</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-95168</link>
		<dc:creator>Shinhao Li</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-95168</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the welcome! I&#039;m still around, I just don&#039;t feel that I have much of value to add to the other topics.

It&#039;s true here and it&#039;s true everywhere - boys only become men when they are expected to. &quot;Boy culture&quot; (frat boys, slackers, beer commercials, etc...) is really the absence of adult male culture.

While I am not a paragon of male maturity, I knew from when I was about nine-years-old that I was expected to study in the US starting at age eighteen, and that I would only visit home every 12-24 months. Kids are amazingly resilient, and they adjust quickly to whatever reality is presented to them. If they have to grow up quickly, they will.

In the US, I feel that boys have no need to grow up quickly - all aspects of danger and risk have been removed. Parents are just a cell phone call away. Kids are never allowed to fail miserably, or be punished. 

Take underage drinking for example. A few of my HS-buddies and I got caught skipping class with alcohol, and we were punished with half-squats and laps at midday. The school discipline officer watched us from the shade with a bamboo practice sword. We were finally stopped when one of us vomited due to heat exhaustion. I just can&#039;t imagine that happening here. Underage drinking is a joke on college campuses, and respect for adult authority, and adulthood suffers as a result. If you can get away with breaking real laws, what else can you get away with?

The answer is simple - let people fail, and let them suffer the consequences. Hand out Fs. No deadline extensions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the welcome! I&#8217;m still around, I just don&#8217;t feel that I have much of value to add to the other topics.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true here and it&#8217;s true everywhere &#8211; boys only become men when they are expected to. &#8220;Boy culture&#8221; (frat boys, slackers, beer commercials, etc&#8230;) is really the absence of adult male culture.</p>
<p>While I am not a paragon of male maturity, I knew from when I was about nine-years-old that I was expected to study in the US starting at age eighteen, and that I would only visit home every 12-24 months. Kids are amazingly resilient, and they adjust quickly to whatever reality is presented to them. If they have to grow up quickly, they will.</p>
<p>In the US, I feel that boys have no need to grow up quickly &#8211; all aspects of danger and risk have been removed. Parents are just a cell phone call away. Kids are never allowed to fail miserably, or be punished. </p>
<p>Take underage drinking for example. A few of my HS-buddies and I got caught skipping class with alcohol, and we were punished with half-squats and laps at midday. The school discipline officer watched us from the shade with a bamboo practice sword. We were finally stopped when one of us vomited due to heat exhaustion. I just can&#8217;t imagine that happening here. Underage drinking is a joke on college campuses, and respect for adult authority, and adulthood suffers as a result. If you can get away with breaking real laws, what else can you get away with?</p>
<p>The answer is simple &#8211; let people fail, and let them suffer the consequences. Hand out Fs. No deadline extensions.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-93050</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 18:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-93050</guid>
		<description>Shinhao Li--welcome back.  You make a great point:  is the &quot;boy crisis&quot; a crisis anywhere but the U.S. and Canada?  If not, that would suggest that it&#039;s not that genetics or biology demand different teaching styles/strategies, but that modern U.S. boy culture tolerates or even fosters a hostility to intellectual accomplishment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shinhao Li&#8211;welcome back.  You make a great point:  is the &#8220;boy crisis&#8221; a crisis anywhere but the U.S. and Canada?  If not, that would suggest that it&#8217;s not that genetics or biology demand different teaching styles/strategies, but that modern U.S. boy culture tolerates or even fosters a hostility to intellectual accomplishment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shinhao Li</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-93043</link>
		<dc:creator>Shinhao Li</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-93043</guid>
		<description>Stuff like this makes me thank God that I went through secondary school in a different country. Homework and class participation counted for 10% (or nothing). Midterms and finals constituted 90~100% of final grades, tests were identified by student ID number, and class rank was posted in the main corridor.

Men nor women need special attention. What we need is objective, quantitative assessment of skill by blind testing. 

As to male under-performance in school - well, women have outnumbered men in college since 1980 (source: US Census Bureau, Stat. Abs. of the US, pg. 183), to no apparent ill effect, and to the considerable advantage of the proportionally fewer college males. Sociological studies show that males generally prefer high-risk/high-reward games, and so males are not necessarily averse to the current arrangement of awarding fewer males greater social reward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuff like this makes me thank God that I went through secondary school in a different country. Homework and class participation counted for 10% (or nothing). Midterms and finals constituted 90~100% of final grades, tests were identified by student ID number, and class rank was posted in the main corridor.</p>
<p>Men nor women need special attention. What we need is objective, quantitative assessment of skill by blind testing. </p>
<p>As to male under-performance in school &#8211; well, women have outnumbered men in college since 1980 (source: US Census Bureau, Stat. Abs. of the US, pg. 183), to no apparent ill effect, and to the considerable advantage of the proportionally fewer college males. Sociological studies show that males generally prefer high-risk/high-reward games, and so males are not necessarily averse to the current arrangement of awarding fewer males greater social reward.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-92307</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-92307</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think that would earn one a reputation as an eccentric, at the very least.  But as you suggested earlier, Erica, from your experience as an engineer:  people can and do get away with all kinds of bad behavior at work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think that would earn one a reputation as an eccentric, at the very least.  But as you suggested earlier, Erica, from your experience as an engineer:  people can and do get away with all kinds of bad behavior at work.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Erica</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-92276</link>
		<dc:creator>Erica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-92276</guid>
		<description>Yet again, it comes back to WHY we&#039;re trying to teach kids anything: so they can be adults who can support themselves (i.e., hold down a job). It&#039;s not just about knowing the answers, it&#039;s about knowing how to deal with everyday life, and sometimes you have to suck it up and deal with things that don&#039;t come naturally. You can&#039;t get up in the middle of a meeting and wander around the room, and explain that you&#039;re a kinesthetic learner who must express themselves physically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet again, it comes back to WHY we&#8217;re trying to teach kids anything: so they can be adults who can support themselves (i.e., hold down a job). It&#8217;s not just about knowing the answers, it&#8217;s about knowing how to deal with everyday life, and sometimes you have to suck it up and deal with things that don&#8217;t come naturally. You can&#8217;t get up in the middle of a meeting and wander around the room, and explain that you&#8217;re a kinesthetic learner who must express themselves physically.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-91717</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-91717</guid>
		<description>Kinesthetic learners. That&#039;s great.  What you can&#039;t do in an Ed. School to move up the ladder to consultancy and fame; to say nothing becoming a State Superintendent of Education or something like that!  I guess we could become kinesthetic teachers, too; us guys, I mean, and get out some Karate Kid ya-yas on the linoleum instead of paying those hefty gym membership fees. Assess that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kinesthetic learners. That&#8217;s great.  What you can&#8217;t do in an Ed. School to move up the ladder to consultancy and fame; to say nothing becoming a State Superintendent of Education or something like that!  I guess we could become kinesthetic teachers, too; us guys, I mean, and get out some Karate Kid ya-yas on the linoleum instead of paying those hefty gym membership fees. Assess that!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-91658</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-91658</guid>
		<description>Lots of new commenters in this thread--welcome, all!

Thanks, Kelly--you&#039;ve confirmed my suspicions based on the book descriptions and reviews at Amazon.com.  She&#039;s another Christina Hoff Summers, it sounds like.

I will say this:  I think that the focus on teaching to the test, and the concomitant reduction of time for recess and P.E. is a relatively new historical development, and that it&#039;s been bad for all children.  Girls need to run around and get their ya-yas out, too.  They&#039;re not &quot;naturally&quot; quiet and submissive because of their sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of new commenters in this thread&#8211;welcome, all!</p>
<p>Thanks, Kelly&#8211;you&#8217;ve confirmed my suspicions based on the book descriptions and reviews at Amazon.com.  She&#8217;s another Christina Hoff Summers, it sounds like.</p>
<p>I will say this:  I think that the focus on teaching to the test, and the concomitant reduction of time for recess and P.E. is a relatively new historical development, and that it&#8217;s been bad for all children.  Girls need to run around and get their ya-yas out, too.  They&#8217;re not &#8220;naturally&#8221; quiet and submissive because of their sex.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/09/30/intro-to-speech-comm-no-girls-allowed/comment-page-1/#comment-91653</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=1270#comment-91653</guid>
		<description>I have not read Tyler&#039;s book, but I caught an interview with her in which she lamented that the poor boys are being left behind in the educational system because educators expect them to sit still and behave in class. Part of her argument seems to be that boys are kinesthetic learners and girls are more passive learners (wow, how gendered are these assessments?), and that the education system values the passive style of learning. So, how can we save our boys from a system that oppresses their &quot;nature&quot;? I was pretty disappointed with the interview, and I got the vibe that Tyler thought we have put to much energy into girls at the detriment of the boys. Others might read her differently?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have not read Tyler&#8217;s book, but I caught an interview with her in which she lamented that the poor boys are being left behind in the educational system because educators expect them to sit still and behave in class. Part of her argument seems to be that boys are kinesthetic learners and girls are more passive learners (wow, how gendered are these assessments?), and that the education system values the passive style of learning. So, how can we save our boys from a system that oppresses their &#8220;nature&#8221;? I was pretty disappointed with the interview, and I got the vibe that Tyler thought we have put to much energy into girls at the detriment of the boys. Others might read her differently?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
