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	<title>Comments on: Reader, she nailed him!</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/08/11/reader-she-nailed-him/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
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		<title>By: Clio Bluestocking</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/08/11/reader-she-nailed-him/comment-page-1/#comment-54058</link>
		<dc:creator>Clio Bluestocking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=486#comment-54058</guid>
		<description>Historiann, I know! I&#039;m getting oriented to this material (mostly just to incorporate into lectures, but it got a bit out of hand through curiosity), and I have questions like &quot;what if the man disappeared for whatever reason?&quot; And &quot;what if the woman had a job and the man didn&#039;t?&quot; And &quot;what about single women?&quot; The community was expanded as part of defense housing in WWII, and there were supposed to have been a lot of Navy men there. So what happened to the women then? I could go on, but then I&#039;d continue highjacking the thread and rob myself of a post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann, I know! I&#8217;m getting oriented to this material (mostly just to incorporate into lectures, but it got a bit out of hand through curiosity), and I have questions like &#8220;what if the man disappeared for whatever reason?&#8221; And &#8220;what if the woman had a job and the man didn&#8217;t?&#8221; And &#8220;what about single women?&#8221; The community was expanded as part of defense housing in WWII, and there were supposed to have been a lot of Navy men there. So what happened to the women then? I could go on, but then I&#8217;d continue highjacking the thread and rob myself of a post!</p>
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		<title>By: hysperia</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/08/11/reader-she-nailed-him/comment-page-1/#comment-54030</link>
		<dc:creator>hysperia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=486#comment-54030</guid>
		<description>Hmmm. Lots to think about there and I will.  Thanks for your response.  I&#039;ll get back to you when I work it all out - ha ha!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm. Lots to think about there and I will.  Thanks for your response.  I&#8217;ll get back to you when I work it all out &#8211; ha ha!</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/08/11/reader-she-nailed-him/comment-page-1/#comment-53740</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=486#comment-53740</guid>
		<description>Clio B.:  fascinating!  I had no idea that women in Greenbelt were forbidden to work for wages.  Presumably, husbands in Greenbelt were forbidden to divorce their wives, to become alcoholics or drug addics, to become mentally or physically ill, and to die, too!  What a miracle!  What a community!  

And hysperia, isn&#039;t the world essentially and always divided into people with different interests?  (Historiann is a Marxist, but isn&#039;t that what politics is, the negotiation of a governing consensus among different competing interest groups?)  I don&#039;t see &quot;identity politics&quot; as more divisive than any other kinds of politics--it&#039;s just that most of us (those who don&#039;t have lots of money or connections to Wall Street, K Street, or Pennsylvania Avenue) have only our identities to bring us together with other likeminded people.  And, suggesting that &quot;identity politics&quot; are somehow more divisive than other kinds of politics seems to be part of a move to exclude people with certain identities from politics entirely.  

Socialism would be great, if only it (like capitalism) didn&#039;t rely on the unpaid labor of women in all of its previous historical incarnations.  This is why I&#039;m something of a Women&#039;s Libber-tarian.  Women are rational economic actors who should have the right to work and sell their labor at the highest price without being accused of the downfall of Western Civilization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clio B.:  fascinating!  I had no idea that women in Greenbelt were forbidden to work for wages.  Presumably, husbands in Greenbelt were forbidden to divorce their wives, to become alcoholics or drug addics, to become mentally or physically ill, and to die, too!  What a miracle!  What a community!  </p>
<p>And hysperia, isn&#8217;t the world essentially and always divided into people with different interests?  (Historiann is a Marxist, but isn&#8217;t that what politics is, the negotiation of a governing consensus among different competing interest groups?)  I don&#8217;t see &#8220;identity politics&#8221; as more divisive than any other kinds of politics&#8211;it&#8217;s just that most of us (those who don&#8217;t have lots of money or connections to Wall Street, K Street, or Pennsylvania Avenue) have only our identities to bring us together with other likeminded people.  And, suggesting that &#8220;identity politics&#8221; are somehow more divisive than other kinds of politics seems to be part of a move to exclude people with certain identities from politics entirely.  </p>
<p>Socialism would be great, if only it (like capitalism) didn&#8217;t rely on the unpaid labor of women in all of its previous historical incarnations.  This is why I&#8217;m something of a Women&#8217;s Libber-tarian.  Women are rational economic actors who should have the right to work and sell their labor at the highest price without being accused of the downfall of Western Civilization.</p>
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		<title>By: hysperia</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/08/11/reader-she-nailed-him/comment-page-1/#comment-53431</link>
		<dc:creator>hysperia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=486#comment-53431</guid>
		<description>Yes, communitarianism does seem to attempt to return &quot;us&quot; to a nostaligic and probably idealized time filled with bliss; except for those of us who never experienced the bliss.  I do think, though, that the politics of &quot;identity&quot;, though perhaps necessary, inevitably becomes divisive and has a tendency to set groups who experience oppression, in various ways, against each other in an opposition that almost inevitably slips into the hierarchical - whichever group is the &quot;more oppressed&quot; is most deserving of urgent attention, as if attention is a very scarce resource.  Unfortunately, sometimes it is.  But that&#039;s not inevitable I hope.  I fear that progressive movements do fall into the competition at least in part because of the problems of identity politics as a strategy or theory for action.  It&#039;s quite handy for the &quot;powers that be&quot; to have oppressed groups fighting against each other for the very resources that are being withheld.  It takes a lot of time and energy and is inevitably disempowering.

I&#039;m still struggling to find what I think the uniting factor might be and trying to go beyond materialism and economic inequality, as those takes on the world don&#039;t seem to have borne fruit.  I still find socialist arguments pretty compelling, as long as we don&#039;t overestimate the economic.  If poverty and lack of access to resources - economic, social, cultural and political - aren&#039;t the things that are common to people oppressed for a variety of other reasons, I don&#039;t know what the unifying factors might be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, communitarianism does seem to attempt to return &#8220;us&#8221; to a nostaligic and probably idealized time filled with bliss; except for those of us who never experienced the bliss.  I do think, though, that the politics of &#8220;identity&#8221;, though perhaps necessary, inevitably becomes divisive and has a tendency to set groups who experience oppression, in various ways, against each other in an opposition that almost inevitably slips into the hierarchical &#8211; whichever group is the &#8220;more oppressed&#8221; is most deserving of urgent attention, as if attention is a very scarce resource.  Unfortunately, sometimes it is.  But that&#8217;s not inevitable I hope.  I fear that progressive movements do fall into the competition at least in part because of the problems of identity politics as a strategy or theory for action.  It&#8217;s quite handy for the &#8220;powers that be&#8221; to have oppressed groups fighting against each other for the very resources that are being withheld.  It takes a lot of time and energy and is inevitably disempowering.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still struggling to find what I think the uniting factor might be and trying to go beyond materialism and economic inequality, as those takes on the world don&#8217;t seem to have borne fruit.  I still find socialist arguments pretty compelling, as long as we don&#8217;t overestimate the economic.  If poverty and lack of access to resources &#8211; economic, social, cultural and political &#8211; aren&#8217;t the things that are common to people oppressed for a variety of other reasons, I don&#8217;t know what the unifying factors might be.</p>
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		<title>By: Clio Bluestocking</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/08/11/reader-she-nailed-him/comment-page-1/#comment-53316</link>
		<dc:creator>Clio Bluestocking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=486#comment-53316</guid>
		<description>Thank you for directing me to this. I&#039;m doing some reading (and attempts at writing) about Greenbelt, Maryland, and the community that was established there in the New Deal. Something about it kept rubbing me the wrong way, what with the women being required to stay home and engage in all of this community-uilding volunteer work. So, they were excluded from wage labor and expected to do volunteer labor all for the privlege of living in this town. 

Also, something in this communitarian idea reminds me very much of these liberal (and even some self-professed radical) males who constantly want to shove feminist issues to the side as distracting from the &quot;real issues.&quot; As if the concerns of half of the population are not &quot;real&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for directing me to this. I&#8217;m doing some reading (and attempts at writing) about Greenbelt, Maryland, and the community that was established there in the New Deal. Something about it kept rubbing me the wrong way, what with the women being required to stay home and engage in all of this community-uilding volunteer work. So, they were excluded from wage labor and expected to do volunteer labor all for the privlege of living in this town. </p>
<p>Also, something in this communitarian idea reminds me very much of these liberal (and even some self-professed radical) males who constantly want to shove feminist issues to the side as distracting from the &#8220;real issues.&#8221; As if the concerns of half of the population are not &#8220;real&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/08/11/reader-she-nailed-him/comment-page-1/#comment-53179</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=486#comment-53179</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty sure it&#039;s the same guy--he&#039;s old now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure it&#8217;s the same guy&#8211;he&#8217;s old now.</p>
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		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/08/11/reader-she-nailed-him/comment-page-1/#comment-53122</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=486#comment-53122</guid>
		<description>Say it ain&#039;t so!  Is this the same Amitai Etzioni who was on my first (or second) graduate syllabus, way back there in the... Dawning of the Age of Aquarius?!?  It didn&#039;t seem like a very young name then, although at that point you sort of assume that all of the authors are Ancients.  Anyway, clearly there was a whole lot of complacent communal sexism out there By The Time We Got to Woodstock, although the language to identify it didn&#039;t begin to be available (on any syllabus I got, anyway) until Ms. hit the streets a few years later.  Anyway, is this the same guy; it didn&#039;t say Jr. or III, by any chance, did it...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Say it ain&#8217;t so!  Is this the same Amitai Etzioni who was on my first (or second) graduate syllabus, way back there in the&#8230; Dawning of the Age of Aquarius?!?  It didn&#8217;t seem like a very young name then, although at that point you sort of assume that all of the authors are Ancients.  Anyway, clearly there was a whole lot of complacent communal sexism out there By The Time We Got to Woodstock, although the language to identify it didn&#8217;t begin to be available (on any syllabus I got, anyway) until Ms. hit the streets a few years later.  Anyway, is this the same guy; it didn&#8217;t say Jr. or III, by any chance, did it&#8230;?</p>
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