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	<title>Comments on: Monday Morning Roundup:  less than half a loaf edition.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-20282</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:00:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-20282</guid>
		<description>Good point--midwives do get a very healthy sub-section of patients.  My sister-in-law gave birth at Ballard House (yes, named after that Ballard!) in Portland, Maine, and although it's right across from Maine Med., as I recall, it was quite a battery of hurdles she had to clear in order to be permitted to give birth there.  The midwives were very careful in selecting patients who had a very low chance of ending up needing any serious medical or certainly surgical intervention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point&#8211;midwives do get a very healthy sub-section of patients.  My sister-in-law gave birth at Ballard House (yes, named after that Ballard!) in Portland, Maine, and although it&#8217;s right across from Maine Med., as I recall, it was quite a battery of hurdles she had to clear in order to be permitted to give birth there.  The midwives were very careful in selecting patients who had a very low chance of ending up needing any serious medical or certainly surgical intervention.</p>
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		<title>By: Knitting Clio</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-20090</link>
		<dc:creator>Knitting Clio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-20090</guid>
		<description>The two statistics are indeed connected in that both reflect vast disparities in our healthcare system, one that supports expensive high-tech options for the insured, and nada for the uninsured.  Martha Ballard had good outcomes because she had clients that were basically healthy and well-nourished.  The same is true of today's highly trained midwives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The two statistics are indeed connected in that both reflect vast disparities in our healthcare system, one that supports expensive high-tech options for the insured, and nada for the uninsured.  Martha Ballard had good outcomes because she had clients that were basically healthy and well-nourished.  The same is true of today&#8217;s highly trained midwives.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-19998</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-19998</guid>
		<description>p.s.  The bottom line for me is that people should do whatever they think is best for them.  Women are all different, and for some, it's important to push a baby out the old-fashioned way.  For others, it's not an option unless they're OK with mutiliation and/or delivering a blue baby.  For still others, "natural" is not an option they would consider in the first place.  So, clearly, it's too rigid to insist that there's only one "correct" or "authentic" or "feminist" way to give birth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s.  The bottom line for me is that people should do whatever they think is best for them.  Women are all different, and for some, it&#8217;s important to push a baby out the old-fashioned way.  For others, it&#8217;s not an option unless they&#8217;re OK with mutiliation and/or delivering a blue baby.  For still others, &#8220;natural&#8221; is not an option they would consider in the first place.  So, clearly, it&#8217;s too rigid to insist that there&#8217;s only one &#8220;correct&#8221; or &#8220;authentic&#8221; or &#8220;feminist&#8221; way to give birth.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-19995</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-19995</guid>
		<description>KC--I'm well aware of Ulrich's work and that of Susan Klepp, etc. on the fertility transition too.  I simply don't think that OB/GYNs are all evil, controlling people forcing women into unnecessary surgeries!  And, I stand by my critque of OBOS as having an overly ideological view of birth.

Much of the feminist critique of allopathic intervention in childbirth was necessary and helpful, and it changed the way most OB/GYNs practice.  (We're no longer in the 1820s, or the 1960s!)  However, much of the message of the so-called "natural" childbirth movement asks women to embrace pain and mutilation as "natural" and a more authentic birth experience.  (Just because Martha Ballard had a great record as a midwife doesn't mean that that's the way to go for all time.)  For some reason, we don't approach any other medical procedures this way--root canals, minor or major surgery, etc.--we assume that anaesthetics are  not only acceptable, but mandatory.  But the "natural" birth movement is too much like the biblical injunction to "bear children in pain"--and telling people that they need to experience physical pain is to me not a feminist message.  That is to me an ideological expectation that we put on women's bodies only

As for the high C-section/high infant mortality rates:  both are troubling, but they're not related in a direct causal relationship.  The women who are getting C-sections are wealthier and well-insured patients for the most part, who took their prenatal vitamins, etc.  The women who tragically are part of the other troublingly high statistics are not wealthy or well-insured, which is probably a major reason that their birth outcomes are not so good.  (No link to the stats now--apologies--this is just my gut instinct and so am willing to be proved wrong here.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KC&#8211;I&#8217;m well aware of Ulrich&#8217;s work and that of Susan Klepp, etc. on the fertility transition too.  I simply don&#8217;t think that OB/GYNs are all evil, controlling people forcing women into unnecessary surgeries!  And, I stand by my critque of OBOS as having an overly ideological view of birth.</p>
<p>Much of the feminist critique of allopathic intervention in childbirth was necessary and helpful, and it changed the way most OB/GYNs practice.  (We&#8217;re no longer in the 1820s, or the 1960s!)  However, much of the message of the so-called &#8220;natural&#8221; childbirth movement asks women to embrace pain and mutilation as &#8220;natural&#8221; and a more authentic birth experience.  (Just because Martha Ballard had a great record as a midwife doesn&#8217;t mean that that&#8217;s the way to go for all time.)  For some reason, we don&#8217;t approach any other medical procedures this way&#8211;root canals, minor or major surgery, etc.&#8211;we assume that anaesthetics are  not only acceptable, but mandatory.  But the &#8220;natural&#8221; birth movement is too much like the biblical injunction to &#8220;bear children in pain&#8221;&#8211;and telling people that they need to experience physical pain is to me not a feminist message.  That is to me an ideological expectation that we put on women&#8217;s bodies only</p>
<p>As for the high C-section/high infant mortality rates:  both are troubling, but they&#8217;re not related in a direct causal relationship.  The women who are getting C-sections are wealthier and well-insured patients for the most part, who took their prenatal vitamins, etc.  The women who tragically are part of the other troublingly high statistics are not wealthy or well-insured, which is probably a major reason that their birth outcomes are not so good.  (No link to the stats now&#8211;apologies&#8211;this is just my gut instinct and so am willing to be proved wrong here.)</p>
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		<title>By: Knitting Clio</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-19932</link>
		<dc:creator>Knitting Clio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-19932</guid>
		<description>I don't think you're being fair to OBOS -- they were among the first to point out that the benefits of C-sections and other birth interventions were overstated at best, and the risks underreported. Sure, not every woman can deliver vaginally, but the risks of infection during C-section (as with any surgery) are not insignificant.  

OBOS' policy statements are consistent with those in Reproductive Health Reality Check and the World Health Organization.  Both point out that the United States has the highest percentage of C-sections (nearly 1/3 of all births), yet the worst maternal and infant mortality and morbidity rates in the developed world.  

Since you're an early U.S. historian, I suggest you review the work of Laurel Thatcher Ulrich and others on early midwifery -- they demonstrate that the shift from midwives to physician-assisted births was based more on ideology than on actual outcomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re being fair to OBOS &#8212; they were among the first to point out that the benefits of C-sections and other birth interventions were overstated at best, and the risks underreported. Sure, not every woman can deliver vaginally, but the risks of infection during C-section (as with any surgery) are not insignificant.  </p>
<p>OBOS&#8217; policy statements are consistent with those in Reproductive Health Reality Check and the World Health Organization.  Both point out that the United States has the highest percentage of C-sections (nearly 1/3 of all births), yet the worst maternal and infant mortality and morbidity rates in the developed world.  </p>
<p>Since you&#8217;re an early U.S. historian, I suggest you review the work of Laurel Thatcher Ulrich and others on early midwifery &#8212; they demonstrate that the shift from midwives to physician-assisted births was based more on ideology than on actual outcomes.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-19755</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 02:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-19755</guid>
		<description>KC--yikes, the fistula issue is a big one.  But, the fact is that many healthy Western women's bodies are never the same after either so-called "natural" births or C-sections.  They're not usually permanently afflicted in the dramatic fashion of a fistula, but a lot of the consequences of so-called "natural" birth are papered over in prepared childbirth and natural childbirth classes, and even by the medical profession.

&lt;em&gt;Our Bodies, Ourselves&lt;/em&gt; was my bible in the late 1980s and 1990s.  Its descriptions of sexuality, birth control options, and the course of pregnancy are really great.  But I found that it didn't give the whole picture when it came to childbirth.  No publication could present the total picture in sufficient detail for everyone--there are other books that do different things--but I found its portrayal of "natural" births versus C-secion births to be highly ideological (with "natural" births being the "good" births, and C-section births being described as "failures"--either of a woman's body, or of her failure to direct or control her birth experience.)  I think it's unfortunate that some stripes of feminism are just as controlling and judgmental as allopathic obstetrics used to be in the bad old days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KC&#8211;yikes, the fistula issue is a big one.  But, the fact is that many healthy Western women&#8217;s bodies are never the same after either so-called &#8220;natural&#8221; births or C-sections.  They&#8217;re not usually permanently afflicted in the dramatic fashion of a fistula, but a lot of the consequences of so-called &#8220;natural&#8221; birth are papered over in prepared childbirth and natural childbirth classes, and even by the medical profession.</p>
<p><em>Our Bodies, Ourselves</em> was my bible in the late 1980s and 1990s.  Its descriptions of sexuality, birth control options, and the course of pregnancy are really great.  But I found that it didn&#8217;t give the whole picture when it came to childbirth.  No publication could present the total picture in sufficient detail for everyone&#8211;there are other books that do different things&#8211;but I found its portrayal of &#8220;natural&#8221; births versus C-secion births to be highly ideological (with &#8220;natural&#8221; births being the &#8220;good&#8221; births, and C-section births being described as &#8220;failures&#8221;&#8211;either of a woman&#8217;s body, or of her failure to direct or control her birth experience.)  I think it&#8217;s unfortunate that some stripes of feminism are just as controlling and judgmental as allopathic obstetrics used to be in the bad old days.</p>
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		<title>By: Knitting Clio</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-19665</link>
		<dc:creator>Knitting Clio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-19665</guid>
		<description>I'm not anti C-section if it's medically necessary, e.g. because of a breech presentation or prolonged unproductive or obstructive labor. However, there is solid evidence that the increase in the percentage of C-sections is not due to safety issues but for convenience.  

The cause of many birth injuries during vaginal delivery is poor prenatal and obstetrical care, as well as very young maternal age and malnutrition.  Hence the problem of vaginal fistulas in developing countries.

In general C-section in the United States is quite safe, but like any major surgery, does carry risk of complications.  
Again, see Our Bodies, Ourselves and their blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not anti C-section if it&#8217;s medically necessary, e.g. because of a breech presentation or prolonged unproductive or obstructive labor. However, there is solid evidence that the increase in the percentage of C-sections is not due to safety issues but for convenience.  </p>
<p>The cause of many birth injuries during vaginal delivery is poor prenatal and obstetrical care, as well as very young maternal age and malnutrition.  Hence the problem of vaginal fistulas in developing countries.</p>
<p>In general C-section in the United States is quite safe, but like any major surgery, does carry risk of complications.<br />
Again, see Our Bodies, Ourselves and their blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Young</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-19202</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-19202</guid>
		<description>Well, you don't have to play, or even respond (though I do thank you for your response).  It's just I generally let folks know when I'm disagreeing with them at my place, as a courtesy.

I think Hillary Clinton's doing well is irrelevant at this point, and she should step aside and let the party go on with its work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you don&#8217;t have to play, or even respond (though I do thank you for your response).  It&#8217;s just I generally let folks know when I&#8217;m disagreeing with them at my place, as a courtesy.</p>
<p>I think Hillary Clinton&#8217;s doing well is irrelevant at this point, and she should step aside and let the party go on with its work.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-19120</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-19120</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Jeremy--I'm not playing.  I have never advanced the notion that "Obama is to blame for the fact that Hillary's doing so well."  I think Hillary Clinton is the reason Hillary Clinton is doing so well, and that Obama should learn from her example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Jeremy&#8211;I&#8217;m not playing.  I have never advanced the notion that &#8220;Obama is to blame for the fact that Hillary&#8217;s doing so well.&#8221;  I think Hillary Clinton is the reason Hillary Clinton is doing so well, and that Obama should learn from her example.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Young</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/06/02/monday-morning-roundup-less-than-half-a-loaf-edition/#comment-19119</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=354#comment-19119</guid>
		<description>Historiann, I'm talking about you: http://www.progressivehistorians.com/2008/06/if-obamas-limping-its-hillary-whos.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann, I&#8217;m talking about you: <a href="http://www.progressivehistorians.com/2008/06/if-obamas-limping-its-hillary-whos.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.progressivehistorians.com/2008/06/if-obamas-limping-its-hillary-whos.html</a></p>
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