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	<title>Comments on: It all comes together</title>
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	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15486</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 21:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15486</guid>
		<description>Good point, Susan.  It's important not to assign these people more power and influence than they've earned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Susan.  It&#8217;s important not to assign these people more power and influence than they&#8217;ve earned.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15471</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 21:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15471</guid>
		<description>I'd add that almost all the "actual voters" I know, even if they prefer Obama, think Clinton is qualified, able, etc.  That is, I think *most* of the democratic electorate gets that these are two smart, qualified people who could help the country.  I don't think democrats are as polarized as the pundits suggest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d add that almost all the &#8220;actual voters&#8221; I know, even if they prefer Obama, think Clinton is qualified, able, etc.  That is, I think *most* of the democratic electorate gets that these are two smart, qualified people who could help the country.  I don&#8217;t think democrats are as polarized as the pundits suggest.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15401</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 18:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15401</guid>
		<description>Rad--the analogy isn't perfect.  I guess what really struck me as a strong connection was the victim-blaming, and the success that bullies have in driving away people who might otherwise stick up for the victim.  Many people, including many feminists I know, honestly believe that Hillary Clinton is a terrible person who has brought the media ugliness and misogynistic ridicule on herself.  They insist that they're not judging her by different standards, when it seems to me that they are.  (Take the 2002 AUMF vote:  as I've noted here in another post, every single man who ran for President in 2004 or 2008 except for Bob Graham voted for it, and yet that's hung around her neck as though she cast the final, decisive vote and then led a tank squad into Bagdad herself.  And, I don't recall Graham's presidential candidacy even making it into 2004--I think he dropped out in 2003, well before Iowa.)

And Roxie--great point.  I must admit that I didn't give a second thought to posting photos of the t-shirts and bumper sticker.  I wanted to show some examples of the ugly discourse, but because they were mostly done with langugage rather than graphic imagery, they didn't trip my wire the way the lynching image of Michelle Obama did.  Also, the graphic use and display of lynched bodies and photos of lynching victims has an especially ugly recent history in the late 19th and 20th centuries.  If the t-shirts and other anti-Hillary products had shown her tied up in lingerie, or hung up by a meat hook, I likely would have made a different call.  

However, it's interesting to me that as ugly as the nutcracker and these t-shirts and other products are in their Hillary hatred, they don't depict her body being subjected to sexual exploitation and/or lethal violence.  (There are no images of Hillary strung up or being victimized by a killer, for example.)  For the most part, even these ugly depictions of Hillary focus on her face alone (although there may be some exceptions I'm unaware of).  But, no such deference or restraint (if that's what it is) is shown when depicting an African American woman's body.  And of course, there's an even longer history of white people and the white-dominated media depicting African and African American bodies in ways that they never would show European or Euro-American bodies.

You're giving me an idea for a new post, Roxie, about the different rules for depicting black bodies versus white bodies in the colonial American and early national U.S. media...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rad&#8211;the analogy isn&#8217;t perfect.  I guess what really struck me as a strong connection was the victim-blaming, and the success that bullies have in driving away people who might otherwise stick up for the victim.  Many people, including many feminists I know, honestly believe that Hillary Clinton is a terrible person who has brought the media ugliness and misogynistic ridicule on herself.  They insist that they&#8217;re not judging her by different standards, when it seems to me that they are.  (Take the 2002 AUMF vote:  as I&#8217;ve noted here in another post, every single man who ran for President in 2004 or 2008 except for Bob Graham voted for it, and yet that&#8217;s hung around her neck as though she cast the final, decisive vote and then led a tank squad into Bagdad herself.  And, I don&#8217;t recall Graham&#8217;s presidential candidacy even making it into 2004&#8211;I think he dropped out in 2003, well before Iowa.)</p>
<p>And Roxie&#8211;great point.  I must admit that I didn&#8217;t give a second thought to posting photos of the t-shirts and bumper sticker.  I wanted to show some examples of the ugly discourse, but because they were mostly done with langugage rather than graphic imagery, they didn&#8217;t trip my wire the way the lynching image of Michelle Obama did.  Also, the graphic use and display of lynched bodies and photos of lynching victims has an especially ugly recent history in the late 19th and 20th centuries.  If the t-shirts and other anti-Hillary products had shown her tied up in lingerie, or hung up by a meat hook, I likely would have made a different call.  </p>
<p>However, it&#8217;s interesting to me that as ugly as the nutcracker and these t-shirts and other products are in their Hillary hatred, they don&#8217;t depict her body being subjected to sexual exploitation and/or lethal violence.  (There are no images of Hillary strung up or being victimized by a killer, for example.)  For the most part, even these ugly depictions of Hillary focus on her face alone (although there may be some exceptions I&#8217;m unaware of).  But, no such deference or restraint (if that&#8217;s what it is) is shown when depicting an African American woman&#8217;s body.  And of course, there&#8217;s an even longer history of white people and the white-dominated media depicting African and African American bodies in ways that they never would show European or Euro-American bodies.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re giving me an idea for a new post, Roxie, about the different rules for depicting black bodies versus white bodies in the colonial American and early national U.S. media&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rad Readr</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15346</link>
		<dc:creator>Rad Readr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 16:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15346</guid>
		<description>Historiann, you're on the mark in pointing at the gendered and misogynistic responses to Hillary. These function as part of an impoverished public and media discourse that extends into many other areas, people, and topics (e.g. immigration). 

What I'm not sure I understand is the connection between, on the one hand, rhetoric/statements in the media/T-Shirts, and, on the other, the workplace bullying. These would seem to function in different ways in very different contexts. I'm thinking here of the physical presence of the bully but also other dynamics. I would even venture that the type of academic bullying you have described is different than how that might emerge in other workplace scenarios.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann, you&#8217;re on the mark in pointing at the gendered and misogynistic responses to Hillary. These function as part of an impoverished public and media discourse that extends into many other areas, people, and topics (e.g. immigration). </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m not sure I understand is the connection between, on the one hand, rhetoric/statements in the media/T-Shirts, and, on the other, the workplace bullying. These would seem to function in different ways in very different contexts. I&#8217;m thinking here of the physical presence of the bully but also other dynamics. I would even venture that the type of academic bullying you have described is different than how that might emerge in other workplace scenarios.</p>
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		<title>By: ej</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15339</link>
		<dc:creator>ej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 15:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15339</guid>
		<description>I find the strain of Hillary-hatred that runs through the country today perplexing. Somehow, its okay to make her the target of such misogynist attacks, which people try to cloak in humor to make them seem acceptable. I honestly think a lot of why people target her goes back to her role in the Clinton White House. Remember all of the outrage that the first lady was actually involved? That she was interested in doing more than redecorating and taking on a few favored charities? Hillary committed the cardinal sin of bending accepted gender norms then, and she continues to do so today in running on her own. 

She's an extremely intelligent, independent, successful, strong woman who is completely at home in the public sphere. If this were Early Modern Europe, she would have been burned at the stake long ago. After all, we can't have all our women acting this way. The nutcracker is actually a warning to other women that such behaviour isn't acceptable by society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the strain of Hillary-hatred that runs through the country today perplexing. Somehow, its okay to make her the target of such misogynist attacks, which people try to cloak in humor to make them seem acceptable. I honestly think a lot of why people target her goes back to her role in the Clinton White House. Remember all of the outrage that the first lady was actually involved? That she was interested in doing more than redecorating and taking on a few favored charities? Hillary committed the cardinal sin of bending accepted gender norms then, and she continues to do so today in running on her own. </p>
<p>She&#8217;s an extremely intelligent, independent, successful, strong woman who is completely at home in the public sphere. If this were Early Modern Europe, she would have been burned at the stake long ago. After all, we can&#8217;t have all our women acting this way. The nutcracker is actually a warning to other women that such behaviour isn&#8217;t acceptable by society.</p>
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		<title>By: Roxie</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15338</link>
		<dc:creator>Roxie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 15:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15338</guid>
		<description>Happy Memorial Day to you, too, Historiann.  Hope you are having some holiday fun.  This isn't a criticism, just a question.  I noticed that in a post the other day you refused to put up the hideous Michelle Obama image from Daily Kos that invoked lynching, though you did link to somebody else who had it up.  In this post, on the other hand, you feature some pretty virulently misogynistic anti-Hillary images.  I don't object to your doing that at all, because I think it's important for those of us who are tracking the ugly underbelly of this contest to look at such things directly.  Could you talk a little bit about what motivated those two different editorial decisions, though?  I ask because we use a lot of images over in my happy little corner of the blogosphere, so I'm interested in how and why fellow/sister bloggers make such judgments.  Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy Memorial Day to you, too, Historiann.  Hope you are having some holiday fun.  This isn&#8217;t a criticism, just a question.  I noticed that in a post the other day you refused to put up the hideous Michelle Obama image from Daily Kos that invoked lynching, though you did link to somebody else who had it up.  In this post, on the other hand, you feature some pretty virulently misogynistic anti-Hillary images.  I don&#8217;t object to your doing that at all, because I think it&#8217;s important for those of us who are tracking the ugly underbelly of this contest to look at such things directly.  Could you talk a little bit about what motivated those two different editorial decisions, though?  I ask because we use a lot of images over in my happy little corner of the blogosphere, so I&#8217;m interested in how and why fellow/sister bloggers make such judgments.  Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts!</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15319</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 13:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15319</guid>
		<description>Ahh...a learning moment, Nicole!  What would the offensive trinket be for McCain, I wonder:  something making a horrible joke about being a P.O.W. who was tortured for seven years?  (Some people just can't take a joke, y'know?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh&#8230;a learning moment, Nicole!  What would the offensive trinket be for McCain, I wonder:  something making a horrible joke about being a P.O.W. who was tortured for seven years?  (Some people just can&#8217;t take a joke, y&#8217;know?)</p>
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		<title>By: nicole</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15122</link>
		<dc:creator>nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 03:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15122</guid>
		<description>My aunt bought my father the "nut-cracker" for Christmas "for a laugh".  I pointed out how upsetting I found the entire situation (apparently my aunt knew I'd react as such- she knows I "just can't take a joke") but they seemed to get it when I asked what the equivalent would be for Obama or McCain.  The overt sexism that exists in the country is astounding and sickening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My aunt bought my father the &#8220;nut-cracker&#8221; for Christmas &#8220;for a laugh&#8221;.  I pointed out how upsetting I found the entire situation (apparently my aunt knew I&#8217;d react as such- she knows I &#8220;just can&#8217;t take a joke&#8221;) but they seemed to get it when I asked what the equivalent would be for Obama or McCain.  The overt sexism that exists in the country is astounding and sickening.</p>
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		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15102</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 01:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15102</guid>
		<description>That was an excellent decision, KC (turning off the TV).  This whole season has been totally disgusting.

My take on the 1968 reference is that it's one she's made before, so the outrage now seems particularly hollow and manufactured.  Now that it's almost June, she probably should have been more thoughtful, but as you point out, Bobby Kennedy Jr. has come out in her defense.  (Actually, the RFK side of the family has endorsed her--RFK Jr., Kathleen Kennedy Townsend.  it's the EMK and Caroline Schlossberg side that has gone for Obama.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was an excellent decision, KC (turning off the TV).  This whole season has been totally disgusting.</p>
<p>My take on the 1968 reference is that it&#8217;s one she&#8217;s made before, so the outrage now seems particularly hollow and manufactured.  Now that it&#8217;s almost June, she probably should have been more thoughtful, but as you point out, Bobby Kennedy Jr. has come out in her defense.  (Actually, the RFK side of the family has endorsed her&#8211;RFK Jr., Kathleen Kennedy Townsend.  it&#8217;s the EMK and Caroline Schlossberg side that has gone for Obama.)</p>
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		<title>By: Knitting Clio</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/25/it-all-comes-together/#comment-15005</link>
		<dc:creator>Knitting Clio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 22:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=333#comment-15005</guid>
		<description>I just watched five minutes of "Meet the Press" where they started to dissect the Robert Kennedy assassination reference.  Despite the fact that RFK Junior said to lay off, they continued to slam her.  Then Maureen Dowd came on and I decided to flip channels before I barfed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just watched five minutes of &#8220;Meet the Press&#8221; where they started to dissect the Robert Kennedy assassination reference.  Despite the fact that RFK Junior said to lay off, they continued to slam her.  Then Maureen Dowd came on and I decided to flip channels before I barfed.</p>
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