<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Hark!  A voice from the future, today.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:11:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Feminist Law Professors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Sexism In The Democratic Primary</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-14788</link>
		<dc:creator>Feminist Law Professors &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Sexism In The Democratic Primary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 15:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-14788</guid>
		<description>[...] Historiann amplifies this point, noting: In many ways, the misogyny directed at Hillary Clinton this year–the blowback of which will probably be felt by women in all walks of life for years to come in thousands of discouraging ways–is part of an old story best documented by Bob Somerby at The Daily Howler. Somerby has been on the case of the insular corporate media since 1999, when he noticed the power of the preferred media narrative about Al Gore’s candidacy for the Presidency, and its curious imperviousness to the facts. And as Somerby points out regularly–you’ll never see or hear the media tell the truth about its own role in shaping our political and cultural discourses. (John Judis’s recent admission in The New Republic that the media hated Clinton and picked Obama as the Democratic winner is one of the few times when we’re permitted to see The Great Oz operating behind the flimsy curtain.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Historiann amplifies this point, noting: In many ways, the misogyny directed at Hillary Clinton this year–the blowback of which will probably be felt by women in all walks of life for years to come in thousands of discouraging ways–is part of an old story best documented by Bob Somerby at The Daily Howler. Somerby has been on the case of the insular corporate media since 1999, when he noticed the power of the preferred media narrative about Al Gore’s candidacy for the Presidency, and its curious imperviousness to the facts. And as Somerby points out regularly–you’ll never see or hear the media tell the truth about its own role in shaping our political and cultural discourses. (John Judis’s recent admission in The New Republic that the media hated Clinton and picked Obama as the Democratic winner is one of the few times when we’re permitted to see The Great Oz operating behind the flimsy curtain.) [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Teh Ruelz : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-14212</link>
		<dc:creator>Teh Ruelz : Historiann : History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 14:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-14212</guid>
		<description>[...] posts about keeping the comments here on topic and specific to the points raised in my posts were apparently too subtle, this blog is now instituting formal ruelz for comments and commenters.  (I always wondered why [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] posts about keeping the comments here on topic and specific to the points raised in my posts were apparently too subtle, this blog is now instituting formal ruelz for comments and commenters.  (I always wondered why [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-13918</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 23:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-13918</guid>
		<description>Once again, what part of &quot;This post is not an argument for the flawless perfection of Clinton as a candidate, nor is it arguing that Clinton is the only or most important victim of this poisonous misogyny” did you not understand?&quot;  Where does your sense of entitlement come from that you think you can make every thread on my blog about your disgust for Hillary Clinton?  

I&#039;d like to point out that your comments to a widely published author are extremely condescending.  I wonder if you would attack a man with my publication record and academic rank in such a manner, insinuating that my analysis is not nuanced or persuasive?  (No--actually, I don&#039;t wonder!)  Some might say that you&#039;re offering evidence of the pervasive misogyny that is in fact the topic of this thread.

It&#039;s clear that you&#039;re playing the old trick that anti-feminists play, which is to say that pointing out injustice is creating divisions, rather than analyzing them, and that talking about it injustice is turning people into &quot;victims.&quot;  So, henceforth, you can keep to your own blog.  This is a feminist blog for feminist women and men.  If you can&#039;t respect that basic fact, then you&#039;re gone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, what part of &#8220;This post is not an argument for the flawless perfection of Clinton as a candidate, nor is it arguing that Clinton is the only or most important victim of this poisonous misogyny” did you not understand?&#8221;  Where does your sense of entitlement come from that you think you can make every thread on my blog about your disgust for Hillary Clinton?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to point out that your comments to a widely published author are extremely condescending.  I wonder if you would attack a man with my publication record and academic rank in such a manner, insinuating that my analysis is not nuanced or persuasive?  (No&#8211;actually, I don&#8217;t wonder!)  Some might say that you&#8217;re offering evidence of the pervasive misogyny that is in fact the topic of this thread.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s clear that you&#8217;re playing the old trick that anti-feminists play, which is to say that pointing out injustice is creating divisions, rather than analyzing them, and that talking about it injustice is turning people into &#8220;victims.&#8221;  So, henceforth, you can keep to your own blog.  This is a feminist blog for feminist women and men.  If you can&#8217;t respect that basic fact, then you&#8217;re gone.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-13904</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 23:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-13904</guid>
		<description>Well, in your blog you&#039;ve never really criticized her on any substantive issue. So, naturally, you chalk up her defeats to the shortcomings of others: their misogyny, for example. You&#039;re already blaming the media for her defeat, thereby assigning almost no agency to the millions of voters who went to the polls over the last several months. 

If you were more critical of your own candidate&#039;s campaign, you would see that the &quot;hatred&quot; of Hillary Clinton (and I do not hate her), is not &quot;blind&quot; and it is not necessarily gendered in the simplistic ways your narrative suggests. You would see that while, yes, sexism plays a role in this campaign, it is complicated by the candidate&#039;s own shortcomings and failures. In short, your analysis would become more nuanced and persuasive. Instead, you continually offer up a narrative in which these homogeneous entities constantly unfairly attack this strong and powerful woman. By reifying these narratives, you simply make Clinton out to be a perpetual victim of misogyny; by connecting her experiences to those of all women, you make all women out to be perpetual victims. I don&#039;t think that does either Clinton or American women any credit. 

I don&#039;t hate her, Historiann. I feel sorry for her at this point. Watching her this evening having to apologize for a stupid gaffe, I just felt sorry for her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in your blog you&#8217;ve never really criticized her on any substantive issue. So, naturally, you chalk up her defeats to the shortcomings of others: their misogyny, for example. You&#8217;re already blaming the media for her defeat, thereby assigning almost no agency to the millions of voters who went to the polls over the last several months. </p>
<p>If you were more critical of your own candidate&#8217;s campaign, you would see that the &#8220;hatred&#8221; of Hillary Clinton (and I do not hate her), is not &#8220;blind&#8221; and it is not necessarily gendered in the simplistic ways your narrative suggests. You would see that while, yes, sexism plays a role in this campaign, it is complicated by the candidate&#8217;s own shortcomings and failures. In short, your analysis would become more nuanced and persuasive. Instead, you continually offer up a narrative in which these homogeneous entities constantly unfairly attack this strong and powerful woman. By reifying these narratives, you simply make Clinton out to be a perpetual victim of misogyny; by connecting her experiences to those of all women, you make all women out to be perpetual victims. I don&#8217;t think that does either Clinton or American women any credit. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t hate her, Historiann. I feel sorry for her at this point. Watching her this evening having to apologize for a stupid gaffe, I just felt sorry for her.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-13762</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 19:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-13762</guid>
		<description>Well, like I said:  you either think language is important, or you don&#039;t.

And, David--you&#039;re right!  Clinton is totally unique in being &quot;a multi-millionaire who won a seat in the U.S. Senate based almost entirely on her name recognition.&quot;  I mean, no other men have gotten into politics that way (except Kennedys, Fords, Macks, Jacksons, Chaffees, Gores, Bushes, Udalls...and the list goes on and on.)  Moreover, she wasn&#039;t a multi-millionaire when she ran in 2000--I think most of their money came from Bill&#039;s book, published only after he left office.  They weren&#039;t nearly as wealthy as the Obamas are when Bill Clinton ran for the Presidency and during his terms in office.

The problem with saying that &quot;Hillary is not the best choice for making the glass ceiling argument,&quot; is that NO WOMAN will be right for making that argument.  Misogyny discounters and deniers will always find a reason to say that this or that prominent woman isn&#039;t a measure for anything.  And yet, we have no problem seeing Obama&#039;s candidacy as a moment of great aspiration for African Americans, or Kennedy&#039;s presidency as a big moment for American Catholics (especially Irish Catholics).

And:  which part of &quot;This post is not an argument for the flawless perfection of Clinton as a candidate, nor is it arguing that Clinton is the only or most important victim of this poisonous misogyny&quot; did you not understand?  (Which means, essentially, that this will not be a comment thread on how vile you find Clinton.)  You don&#039;t need to state &lt;em&gt;yet again&lt;/em&gt; all of the reasons you hate Hillary Clinton.  Give it a rest, OK?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, like I said:  you either think language is important, or you don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>And, David&#8211;you&#8217;re right!  Clinton is totally unique in being &#8220;a multi-millionaire who won a seat in the U.S. Senate based almost entirely on her name recognition.&#8221;  I mean, no other men have gotten into politics that way (except Kennedys, Fords, Macks, Jacksons, Chaffees, Gores, Bushes, Udalls&#8230;and the list goes on and on.)  Moreover, she wasn&#8217;t a multi-millionaire when she ran in 2000&#8211;I think most of their money came from Bill&#8217;s book, published only after he left office.  They weren&#8217;t nearly as wealthy as the Obamas are when Bill Clinton ran for the Presidency and during his terms in office.</p>
<p>The problem with saying that &#8220;Hillary is not the best choice for making the glass ceiling argument,&#8221; is that NO WOMAN will be right for making that argument.  Misogyny discounters and deniers will always find a reason to say that this or that prominent woman isn&#8217;t a measure for anything.  And yet, we have no problem seeing Obama&#8217;s candidacy as a moment of great aspiration for African Americans, or Kennedy&#8217;s presidency as a big moment for American Catholics (especially Irish Catholics).</p>
<p>And:  which part of &#8220;This post is not an argument for the flawless perfection of Clinton as a candidate, nor is it arguing that Clinton is the only or most important victim of this poisonous misogyny&#8221; did you not understand?  (Which means, essentially, that this will not be a comment thread on how vile you find Clinton.)  You don&#8217;t need to state <em>yet again</em> all of the reasons you hate Hillary Clinton.  Give it a rest, OK?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-13728</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 19:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-13728</guid>
		<description>The Stephen piece is overheated and hyperbolic. There&#039;s no doubt that sexism has been thrown at Clinton during this campaign, but Stephen seems to imply that every attack against Hillary was unfair and unnecessarily malicious. He also claims that no one will admit Clinton is smart, and that no one else will say of a male candidate that he is &quot;cool and collected.&quot; But people say that about Obama all the time, and people also, even her most bitter enemies, always say she is incredibly smart. Further, Obama&#039;s remark at the South Carolina debate regarding &quot;not being sure who he is running against&quot; was entirely fair, given that in the days immediately prior to that debate, the Clinton campaign had been putting Bill front and center in their attacks on him. 

I think Hillary is not the best choice for making the glass ceiling argument. She&#039;s a multi-millionaire who won a seat in the U.S. Senate based almost entirely on her name recognition (and pushed aside a more qualified female candidate in order to do so, I might add.) She spent too much time during her Senate career tacking to the middle and supporting Bush&#039;s wars to keep my respect. She ran a poor campaign and lost to a better candidate. Stephen&#039;s conclusion almost makes it seem as if he is implying that Democrats will regret nominating a black man when he loses in November. Is that why he is seriously flawed? 

Does this al-Jazeera report best express his flaws?

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/05/race-in-kentuck.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Stephen piece is overheated and hyperbolic. There&#8217;s no doubt that sexism has been thrown at Clinton during this campaign, but Stephen seems to imply that every attack against Hillary was unfair and unnecessarily malicious. He also claims that no one will admit Clinton is smart, and that no one else will say of a male candidate that he is &#8220;cool and collected.&#8221; But people say that about Obama all the time, and people also, even her most bitter enemies, always say she is incredibly smart. Further, Obama&#8217;s remark at the South Carolina debate regarding &#8220;not being sure who he is running against&#8221; was entirely fair, given that in the days immediately prior to that debate, the Clinton campaign had been putting Bill front and center in their attacks on him. </p>
<p>I think Hillary is not the best choice for making the glass ceiling argument. She&#8217;s a multi-millionaire who won a seat in the U.S. Senate based almost entirely on her name recognition (and pushed aside a more qualified female candidate in order to do so, I might add.) She spent too much time during her Senate career tacking to the middle and supporting Bush&#8217;s wars to keep my respect. She ran a poor campaign and lost to a better candidate. Stephen&#8217;s conclusion almost makes it seem as if he is implying that Democrats will regret nominating a black man when he loses in November. Is that why he is seriously flawed? </p>
<p>Does this al-Jazeera report best express his flaws?</p>
<p><a href="http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/05/race-in-kentuck.html" rel="nofollow">http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/05/race-in-kentuck.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-13724</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 19:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-13724</guid>
		<description>KC--great point.  You should do a post comparing the language and rhetoric of 2008 to that of 1872.  

And ej--you&#039;re right that media stories about the sexism of the 2008 campaign coverage are stories in which they examine and (usually) summarily dismiss the claim, or at least suggest that it&#039;s only angry Hillary supporters who care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KC&#8211;great point.  You should do a post comparing the language and rhetoric of 2008 to that of 1872.  </p>
<p>And ej&#8211;you&#8217;re right that media stories about the sexism of the 2008 campaign coverage are stories in which they examine and (usually) summarily dismiss the claim, or at least suggest that it&#8217;s only angry Hillary supporters who care.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Knitting Clio</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-13723</link>
		<dc:creator>Knitting Clio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 18:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-13723</guid>
		<description>The blowback against a woman candidate goes back even further, to the nineteenth century, when Victoria Woodhull ran for president on the Equal Rights Party, with Frederick Douglas as her running mate.  I use this historical example in my modern U.S. women&#039;s history class this semester to illustrate the ways in which things have not changed all that much when it comes to the way female political candidates are treated by the media.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The blowback against a woman candidate goes back even further, to the nineteenth century, when Victoria Woodhull ran for president on the Equal Rights Party, with Frederick Douglas as her running mate.  I use this historical example in my modern U.S. women&#8217;s history class this semester to illustrate the ways in which things have not changed all that much when it comes to the way female political candidates are treated by the media.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ej</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-13719</link>
		<dc:creator>ej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 18:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-13719</guid>
		<description>Whether or not the media influenced voters, they certainly felt that it was completely acceptable to speak about Clinton in openly sexist terms-which revealed how ingrained sexist language is in our society and how we continue to accept sexist behavior in a way that we would never accept racism.

Although there are clearly some who will never vote for Obama because of his color, I&#039;ve been encouraged by the country&#039;s response to him. On the contrary, the response to Clinton has been appalling, and I disagree that the glass ceiling has been broken. I don&#039;t feel optimistic about my daughter&#039;s future. If a woman as intelligent, successful, charismatic and politically savvy as HRC couldn&#039;t break that glass ceiling, I don&#039;t know who can.

I think its also been telling how quick the mainstream media has been to dismiss the charges of sexism leveled by the campaign.  They&#039;ve clearly refused to see it as a real problem, and I fear are dismissing her remarks as excuses, which doesn&#039;t give me much hope about them changing their ways anytime soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether or not the media influenced voters, they certainly felt that it was completely acceptable to speak about Clinton in openly sexist terms-which revealed how ingrained sexist language is in our society and how we continue to accept sexist behavior in a way that we would never accept racism.</p>
<p>Although there are clearly some who will never vote for Obama because of his color, I&#8217;ve been encouraged by the country&#8217;s response to him. On the contrary, the response to Clinton has been appalling, and I disagree that the glass ceiling has been broken. I don&#8217;t feel optimistic about my daughter&#8217;s future. If a woman as intelligent, successful, charismatic and politically savvy as HRC couldn&#8217;t break that glass ceiling, I don&#8217;t know who can.</p>
<p>I think its also been telling how quick the mainstream media has been to dismiss the charges of sexism leveled by the campaign.  They&#8217;ve clearly refused to see it as a real problem, and I fear are dismissing her remarks as excuses, which doesn&#8217;t give me much hope about them changing their ways anytime soon.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/23/hark-a-voice-from-the-future-today/comment-page-1/#comment-13716</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 17:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=326#comment-13716</guid>
		<description>Well, either you think that people on cable TV and in newspapers, magazines, and blogs all using misogyinistic language and frames about Clinton is important, or you don&#039;t.  (Andrew Stephen&#039;s article, which was the inspriation for this post, does a nice job of cataloging the insults.)  Because I&#039;m a historian, and we use texts and language to analyze past societies, I happen to think they matter a lot.  The precise influence the media has on voter behavior is hard to quantify, but my point in this post is less about the electoral results than it is how troubling it is for our culture as a whole.

I don&#039;t have time to address your lengthy list of questions now.  But as to your question #4, this is a post about the corporate media&#039;s use of language and framing, not what&#039;s in the hearts and minds of all Americans.  I&#039;m not making a claim here in the &quot;oppression olympics.&quot;  In the media discourse, there&#039;s no question but that sexist language and ideas were given free reign, whereas racist language and ideas were more often than not quickly repudiated.  Also, that nutcracker was apparently for sale in airports in CNBC shops, whereas the &quot;Curious George&quot; T-shirt was one yokel&#039;s idea to sell at his own restaurant.  One product was mass-produced and mass-marketed, the other was not.  I think that says a lot about the free reign that misogyny has had in this political campaign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, either you think that people on cable TV and in newspapers, magazines, and blogs all using misogyinistic language and frames about Clinton is important, or you don&#8217;t.  (Andrew Stephen&#8217;s article, which was the inspriation for this post, does a nice job of cataloging the insults.)  Because I&#8217;m a historian, and we use texts and language to analyze past societies, I happen to think they matter a lot.  The precise influence the media has on voter behavior is hard to quantify, but my point in this post is less about the electoral results than it is how troubling it is for our culture as a whole.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have time to address your lengthy list of questions now.  But as to your question #4, this is a post about the corporate media&#8217;s use of language and framing, not what&#8217;s in the hearts and minds of all Americans.  I&#8217;m not making a claim here in the &#8220;oppression olympics.&#8221;  In the media discourse, there&#8217;s no question but that sexist language and ideas were given free reign, whereas racist language and ideas were more often than not quickly repudiated.  Also, that nutcracker was apparently for sale in airports in CNBC shops, whereas the &#8220;Curious George&#8221; T-shirt was one yokel&#8217;s idea to sell at his own restaurant.  One product was mass-produced and mass-marketed, the other was not.  I think that says a lot about the free reign that misogyny has had in this political campaign.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

