<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Soylent Green&#8230;it&#8217;s historians!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/</link>
	<description>History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 26 May 2013 02:13:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9560</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 17:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9560</guid>
		<description>Historiann,

Grad. school deferments for anything except medicine and maybe some hard sciences ended long before I went there.  There was a national draft &quot;lottery&quot; and you pretty much knew your number and draft chances by graduation time. (I should note that one-third of my entering group were women, although nothing close to real equity pertained).  Besides, Nixon was &quot;Vietnamizing&quot; the war and draft pools were declining pretty steadily through the early 1970s. There were actually 38 names on the list I was handed the first day, but 8 were listed as &quot;Transfer from Oriental Studies,&quot; so I always used 30 as the real number.    

Intergenerational equity is a hard thing to obtain, esp. in an industry as self-indulgent as academics.  Robert Townshend rocketed to fame in the mid-90s with a pretty low-tech handcount analysis showing that between 1985 and 1995, tenure-track lines in history departments listed in the AHA guide actually rose by about one per department (contrary to what was even then the standing critique about downsizing and a strategic shift to contingent academic labor).  Hardly robust growth, or maybe even sustainable growth, but real growth nevertheless.  In retrospect it&#039;s pretty clear that graduate programs, in competition with each other, used that modest quickening to ramp up their admissions rates. That memo perhaps irresponsibly predicting a looming wave of retirements was pretty clearly part of that initiative.  In the process, some number of people from the lost gen. who had somehow remained viable by taking one-year jobs serially, or what were then called &quot;alternative&quot; history posts (later re-branded as &quot;public history&quot;) doubtless got swept aside in the institutionally-understandable preference to stock up on newly-minted majors uncontaminated by all that stuff. If an industrywide initiative had emerged to identify and re-absorb them (if still qualified), the flood of new students wouldn&#039;t have happened and the predictive retirement memo might never have even been written.  

Nobody can be blamed for all this, but it&#039;s not as if a comet slammed into the earth. Academia is about predicting climate change, commodity resource demand shifts, and all sorts of complex behavioral phenomena.  The academy will never write the actual critical history of itself in the post-60s generation. Who would advise a student to take something like that on and hope to live to tell about it?  All this said, it&#039;s entirely too true about the corporate university part.  But that model would only benefit from mandatory retirements of expensive senior staff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann,</p>
<p>Grad. school deferments for anything except medicine and maybe some hard sciences ended long before I went there.  There was a national draft &#8220;lottery&#8221; and you pretty much knew your number and draft chances by graduation time. (I should note that one-third of my entering group were women, although nothing close to real equity pertained).  Besides, Nixon was &#8220;Vietnamizing&#8221; the war and draft pools were declining pretty steadily through the early 1970s. There were actually 38 names on the list I was handed the first day, but 8 were listed as &#8220;Transfer from Oriental Studies,&#8221; so I always used 30 as the real number.    </p>
<p>Intergenerational equity is a hard thing to obtain, esp. in an industry as self-indulgent as academics.  Robert Townshend rocketed to fame in the mid-90s with a pretty low-tech handcount analysis showing that between 1985 and 1995, tenure-track lines in history departments listed in the AHA guide actually rose by about one per department (contrary to what was even then the standing critique about downsizing and a strategic shift to contingent academic labor).  Hardly robust growth, or maybe even sustainable growth, but real growth nevertheless.  In retrospect it&#8217;s pretty clear that graduate programs, in competition with each other, used that modest quickening to ramp up their admissions rates. That memo perhaps irresponsibly predicting a looming wave of retirements was pretty clearly part of that initiative.  In the process, some number of people from the lost gen. who had somehow remained viable by taking one-year jobs serially, or what were then called &#8220;alternative&#8221; history posts (later re-branded as &#8220;public history&#8221;) doubtless got swept aside in the institutionally-understandable preference to stock up on newly-minted majors uncontaminated by all that stuff. If an industrywide initiative had emerged to identify and re-absorb them (if still qualified), the flood of new students wouldn&#8217;t have happened and the predictive retirement memo might never have even been written.  </p>
<p>Nobody can be blamed for all this, but it&#8217;s not as if a comet slammed into the earth. Academia is about predicting climate change, commodity resource demand shifts, and all sorts of complex behavioral phenomena.  The academy will never write the actual critical history of itself in the post-60s generation. Who would advise a student to take something like that on and hope to live to tell about it?  All this said, it&#8217;s entirely too true about the corporate university part.  But that model would only benefit from mandatory retirements of expensive senior staff.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9556</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 13:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9556</guid>
		<description>History Enthusiast:  the bad news is that the Berks doesn&#039;t come around but every three years, like a slow but reliable comet.  Perhaps in 2011 you&#039;ll be in a place financially where a trip will seem more affordable.  I&#039;m sorry!

And Roxie:  how bad would someone&#039;s grammar have to be if it&#039;s evident at a coctail party?  (Or is that just a lame conversation opener?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>History Enthusiast:  the bad news is that the Berks doesn&#8217;t come around but every three years, like a slow but reliable comet.  Perhaps in 2011 you&#8217;ll be in a place financially where a trip will seem more affordable.  I&#8217;m sorry!</p>
<p>And Roxie:  how bad would someone&#8217;s grammar have to be if it&#8217;s evident at a coctail party?  (Or is that just a lame conversation opener?)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9555</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 13:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9555</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Indyanna, for your longue duree analysis!  I think hh&#039;s point about the corporate model for universities still stands, and I think that&#039;s a more compelling reason that the mass of 1990s retirements resulted only in a somewhat improved job environment.  Your generation truly is the &quot;lost generation&quot; of historians--and you&#039;re right, many of you were instrumental in professionalizing public history.  

Your entering class at said university was 30!?!  You leave out a few critical points of information:  the Vietnam War was on, there was a draft, and I assume that grad students could get deferrments?  Was that one reason the ranks swelled right around 1968?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Indyanna, for your longue duree analysis!  I think hh&#8217;s point about the corporate model for universities still stands, and I think that&#8217;s a more compelling reason that the mass of 1990s retirements resulted only in a somewhat improved job environment.  Your generation truly is the &#8220;lost generation&#8221; of historians&#8211;and you&#8217;re right, many of you were instrumental in professionalizing public history.  </p>
<p>Your entering class at said university was 30!?!  You leave out a few critical points of information:  the Vietnam War was on, there was a draft, and I assume that grad students could get deferrments?  Was that one reason the ranks swelled right around 1968?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Indyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9549</link>
		<dc:creator>Indyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 03:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9549</guid>
		<description>Just to clarify a small historical detail: universities did not &quot;do away with [the] mandatory retirement age.&quot; Congress amended the law to give academics the same basic civil rights with respect to job security that the iconic laws of the 1960s extended to every other occupational classification from hotel hospitality aides to nuclear engineers (save for airline pilots and a very few other groups). During the Soylent era, I was the only one of thirty program-beginners at Historiann&#039;s later doctoral university ever to set foot on the tenure track, much less to stay there for long. (And I think I can testify that it wasn&#039;t a function of being the best of that group, per se). Until and unless I stopped contributing to knowledge, though, I wouldn&#039;t feel obliged to step aside to facilitate more equity hires for a later generation. 

The snows weren&#039;t any deeper in my day, but I think Robert Townsend would document that until about the time Historiann entered, there were whole series of years when there were barely one or two advertised searches, if that many, per year in some major fields of historical inquiry. The trough after 1990 was not nearly that deep, nor did entering cohorts at most programs ever again approach thirty. (The defining obscene feature of the early 1990s recession was eighteen or so advertised searches in a given field followed by twelve or fifteen cancellations, often far along in the application or even the interview process). But, while attrition has been a major feature of academic life even when jobs were chasing graduates (way before my time!), placement ratios have been far higher for the last two decades than they were for the two before that. That&#039;s basically what created the sphere that gradually came to be called &quot;public history.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify a small historical detail: universities did not &#8220;do away with [the] mandatory retirement age.&#8221; Congress amended the law to give academics the same basic civil rights with respect to job security that the iconic laws of the 1960s extended to every other occupational classification from hotel hospitality aides to nuclear engineers (save for airline pilots and a very few other groups). During the Soylent era, I was the only one of thirty program-beginners at Historiann&#8217;s later doctoral university ever to set foot on the tenure track, much less to stay there for long. (And I think I can testify that it wasn&#8217;t a function of being the best of that group, per se). Until and unless I stopped contributing to knowledge, though, I wouldn&#8217;t feel obliged to step aside to facilitate more equity hires for a later generation. </p>
<p>The snows weren&#8217;t any deeper in my day, but I think Robert Townsend would document that until about the time Historiann entered, there were whole series of years when there were barely one or two advertised searches, if that many, per year in some major fields of historical inquiry. The trough after 1990 was not nearly that deep, nor did entering cohorts at most programs ever again approach thirty. (The defining obscene feature of the early 1990s recession was eighteen or so advertised searches in a given field followed by twelve or fifteen cancellations, often far along in the application or even the interview process). But, while attrition has been a major feature of academic life even when jobs were chasing graduates (way before my time!), placement ratios have been far higher for the last two decades than they were for the two before that. That&#8217;s basically what created the sphere that gradually came to be called &#8220;public history.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Roxie</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9545</link>
		<dc:creator>Roxie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 23:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9545</guid>
		<description>And if you&#039;d gone to grad school in English, every poor schlub you ever meet at every cocktail party for the rest of your life will either a) express self-consciousness about his extremely poor grammar or b) run through the entire New York Times bestseller list and express surprise (=shock, horror) that you haven&#039;t read a single title -- even if your last book was on the Gawain poet.  Sigh.  Oh, and c) assume you were supporting Obama.  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And if you&#8217;d gone to grad school in English, every poor schlub you ever meet at every cocktail party for the rest of your life will either a) express self-consciousness about his extremely poor grammar or b) run through the entire New York Times bestseller list and express surprise (=shock, horror) that you haven&#8217;t read a single title &#8212; even if your last book was on the Gawain poet.  Sigh.  Oh, and c) assume you were supporting Obama.  <img src='http://www.historiann.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The History Enthusiast</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9544</link>
		<dc:creator>The History Enthusiast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 23:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9544</guid>
		<description>I so wish I could go to the Berkshires conference! Unfortunately my department has virtually no money to give grad students for travel expenses.  I am thinking about starting up a brownbag session for this coming fall that talks about gender and academia, so I really would&#039;ve liked to attend that panel you mentioned.  Ah well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I so wish I could go to the Berkshires conference! Unfortunately my department has virtually no money to give grad students for travel expenses.  I am thinking about starting up a brownbag session for this coming fall that talks about gender and academia, so I really would&#8217;ve liked to attend that panel you mentioned.  Ah well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9543</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 23:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9543</guid>
		<description>hh--I agree that developing the MA programs better is a good idea.  Public history is a field in which the MA seems to be the most versatile degree--the public historians I work with are not in favor of making a public history Ph.D. in my department.  

(There would be problems with expanding public history MA programs in many history departments, though, mostly because of some historians&#039; odd hostility to public history.  But it would be a fight worth having, I think.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hh&#8211;I agree that developing the MA programs better is a good idea.  Public history is a field in which the MA seems to be the most versatile degree&#8211;the public historians I work with are not in favor of making a public history Ph.D. in my department.  </p>
<p>(There would be problems with expanding public history MA programs in many history departments, though, mostly because of some historians&#8217; odd hostility to public history.  But it would be a fight worth having, I think.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: habitual historian</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9541</link>
		<dc:creator>habitual historian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 22:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9541</guid>
		<description>Historiann,  I certainly agree with you that there are plenty of options for students going to grad school beyond just becoming professors.  And I certainly knew all the dire forecasts about tenure track jobs when I sauntered off to grad school in 2000.  Perhaps the solution is for programs to scale back the size of the  Ph.D. programs and do more development of the regular masters, MAT, and public history.  After all, I&#039;m not sure what additional options open up for students with a Ph.D. in history beyond being a professor or editor at a press/journal, whereas a Masters in history can be a good entre into a number of areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historiann,  I certainly agree with you that there are plenty of options for students going to grad school beyond just becoming professors.  And I certainly knew all the dire forecasts about tenure track jobs when I sauntered off to grad school in 2000.  Perhaps the solution is for programs to scale back the size of the  Ph.D. programs and do more development of the regular masters, MAT, and public history.  After all, I&#8217;m not sure what additional options open up for students with a Ph.D. in history beyond being a professor or editor at a press/journal, whereas a Masters in history can be a good entre into a number of areas.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Historiann</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9523</link>
		<dc:creator>Historiann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 19:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9523</guid>
		<description>hh--good times, indeed!  I was encouraged to go to graduate school in 1990 because of that very report about the looming retirement of millions of faculty in the 1990s.  

Regular faculty positions are hard to come by, but I&#039;m not someone who calls for grad programs to scale back.  There are lots of other careers people can follow with graduate training in history, especially in public history and school teaching.  I think potential grad students should be given a realistically bleak forecast as to their chances of landing a tenure-track faculty position, but no one has a gun to their heads to go to grad school.  (And, as I said in the post, it seems entirely rational from the perspective of many recent college grads with liberal arts degrees who don&#039;t want to go to law school...)

Mary:  don&#039;t bother with Canada.  Their laws are very strict about having to hire qualified Canadian citizens first.  And, it&#039;s a very, very small country.  (Population-wise, it&#039;s I think 1/10 the size of the U.S.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hh&#8211;good times, indeed!  I was encouraged to go to graduate school in 1990 because of that very report about the looming retirement of millions of faculty in the 1990s.  </p>
<p>Regular faculty positions are hard to come by, but I&#8217;m not someone who calls for grad programs to scale back.  There are lots of other careers people can follow with graduate training in history, especially in public history and school teaching.  I think potential grad students should be given a realistically bleak forecast as to their chances of landing a tenure-track faculty position, but no one has a gun to their heads to go to grad school.  (And, as I said in the post, it seems entirely rational from the perspective of many recent college grads with liberal arts degrees who don&#8217;t want to go to law school&#8230;)</p>
<p>Mary:  don&#8217;t bother with Canada.  Their laws are very strict about having to hire qualified Canadian citizens first.  And, it&#8217;s a very, very small country.  (Population-wise, it&#8217;s I think 1/10 the size of the U.S.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: habitual historian</title>
		<link>http://www.historiann.com/2008/05/09/soylent-greenits-historians/comment-page-1/#comment-9518</link>
		<dc:creator>habitual historian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 19:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historiann.com/?p=300#comment-9518</guid>
		<description>Just what we need, more enrollments in doctoral history programs when there are still a dearth of jobs.  I remember when I was in grad school a few years ago and wishing I had a time machine to go back to the late 1980s and stop the publication of that famous study about an expected shortage in history Ph.D.&#039;s.  Ph.D. programs expanded significantly after that, but then universities did away with mandatory retirement age and went to the corporate model of replacing every two tenure track positions with one.  Good times!
In an unrelated note, I can&#039;t believe you called this post &quot;Soylent Green&quot;  As proof that psychronicity does exist, my blockbuster online account just shipped that movie to me.  I&#039;m teaching a class on the 1970s this summer and I need to see which parts I want to show when we talk about environmentalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just what we need, more enrollments in doctoral history programs when there are still a dearth of jobs.  I remember when I was in grad school a few years ago and wishing I had a time machine to go back to the late 1980s and stop the publication of that famous study about an expected shortage in history Ph.D.&#8217;s.  Ph.D. programs expanded significantly after that, but then universities did away with mandatory retirement age and went to the corporate model of replacing every two tenure track positions with one.  Good times!<br />
In an unrelated note, I can&#8217;t believe you called this post &#8220;Soylent Green&#8221;  As proof that psychronicity does exist, my blockbuster online account just shipped that movie to me.  I&#8217;m teaching a class on the 1970s this summer and I need to see which parts I want to show when we talk about environmentalism.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
