Comments on: Curiouser and curiouser: Malice in Tenureland http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/ History and sexual politics, 1492 to the present Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:23:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Historiann http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4158 Historiann Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:32:36 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4158 Nerdiah, thanks for your further comments. The values issue is an interesting and complex one. As most of us who work/have worked in universities know, there are concentric circles in which we work--the university, the college within the university, and the department/s within the college. I worked for two different places--a university and a college--that espoused wonderful values at the institutional level, but my department didn't in fact live up to those stated values. So--what's a girl to do in a case like that? (Well, I resigned, but only because I had another job offer.) What if someone works in a unit with people she respects and who treat each other well, but the institution itself is at odds with her personal beliefs and values? It's a difficult question. Nerdiah, thanks for your further comments. The values issue is an interesting and complex one. As most of us who work/have worked in universities know, there are concentric circles in which we work–the university, the college within the university, and the department/s within the college. I worked for two different places–a university and a college–that espoused wonderful values at the institutional level, but my department didn’t in fact live up to those stated values. So–what’s a girl to do in a case like that? (Well, I resigned, but only because I had another job offer.) What if someone works in a unit with people she respects and who treat each other well, but the institution itself is at odds with her personal beliefs and values? It’s a difficult question.

]]> By: nerdiah http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4144 nerdiah Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:46:43 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4144 Professor Zero wrote: "<i>All the focus on what she did wrong or might have done wrong in not foreseeing this seems odd to me.</i>" Yes, I can see how it would look that way. I think the reason I focused on her first is because the behaviour of the seminary wasn't very surprising to me. "Like, OMG! Fundamentalist Christians are being liars and hypocrites! Stop the presses!" ... But the apparent contradiction in her own behaviour I noticed. Fundamentalist males will do what fundamentalists males will do, but I expect another woman to pull her weight. That it appeared that she was a freeloader made me <a href="http://en.scientificcommons.org/20991213" rel="nofollow">spiteful</a> towards her. Professor Zero wrote: “All the focus on what she did wrong or might have done wrong in not foreseeing this seems odd to me.”

Yes, I can see how it would look that way. I think the reason I focused on her first is because the behaviour of the seminary wasn’t very surprising to me. “Like, OMG! Fundamentalist Christians are being liars and hypocrites! Stop the presses!” … But the apparent contradiction in her own behaviour I noticed. Fundamentalist males will do what fundamentalists males will do, but I expect another woman to pull her weight. That it appeared that she was a freeloader made me spiteful towards her.

]]> By: nerdiah http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4141 nerdiah Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:14:03 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4141 You're right. I've gone out on a limb and made some assumptions about her that, while not unreasonable, could only be verified by sitting down and talking with her personally. For all I know she did spend those 6 years busting her gut trying to change the uni culture, or trying desperately to find a better place to work while some unknown circumstance prevented her. It's not very likely, but I guess when you have an actual private citizen who probably didn't want this kind of fame anyway, it's best to err on the side of caution. I would feel bad if she stumbled upon my comments if they have been unfair and failed to take into account some unknown factor. I guess ultimately I can't comprehend how any woman could bear to work at such a place, especially one who is willing to go to court like that. It would take massive cognitive dissonance to, on one hand, accept a culture that would take that Timothy verse on face value, but simultaneously believe that you as a woman are worthy of teaching men, or that it somehow doesn't apply to you. I think it's that latter possibility that got me so fired up in the first place -- the suspicion that she was happy to let it slide, just as long as it didn't effect <i>her</i>. But then, as soon as it did, she was willing to (try to) take advantage of avenues that other women had to fight hard to make available to her - women from an ideology that she had worked to undermine. But again, this is a presumption based upon one small article. I take your point regarding where one 'chooses' to work, and whether one should choose not to work somewhere because they don't believe in the organisation. There's obviously a grey-area here, depending upon what the norm is, what one's station there will be, how desperate one is for a job, etc. It is my opinion that working for a place like this Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, especially for so long, is not right for anyone who would believe in trying to invoke the law over the Bible. But it is my opinion, and could easily be changed if some other factor was in play. You’re right. I’ve gone out on a limb and made some assumptions about her that, while not unreasonable, could only be verified by sitting down and talking with her personally. For all I know she did spend those 6 years busting her gut trying to change the uni culture, or trying desperately to find a better place to work while some unknown circumstance prevented her. It’s not very likely, but I guess when you have an actual private citizen who probably didn’t want this kind of fame anyway, it’s best to err on the side of caution. I would feel bad if she stumbled upon my comments if they have been unfair and failed to take into account some unknown factor.

I guess ultimately I can’t comprehend how any woman could bear to work at such a place, especially one who is willing to go to court like that. It would take massive cognitive dissonance to, on one hand, accept a culture that would take that Timothy verse on face value, but simultaneously believe that you as a woman are worthy of teaching men, or that it somehow doesn’t apply to you.

I think it’s that latter possibility that got me so fired up in the first place — the suspicion that she was happy to let it slide, just as long as it didn’t effect her. But then, as soon as it did, she was willing to (try to) take advantage of avenues that other women had to fight hard to make available to her - women from an ideology that she had worked to undermine. But again, this is a presumption based upon one small article.

I take your point regarding where one ‘chooses’ to work, and whether one should choose not to work somewhere because they don’t believe in the organisation. There’s obviously a grey-area here, depending upon what the norm is, what one’s station there will be, how desperate one is for a job, etc. It is my opinion that working for a place like this Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, especially for so long, is not right for anyone who would believe in trying to invoke the law over the Bible. But it is my opinion, and could easily be changed if some other factor was in play.

]]> By: Historiann http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4133 Historiann Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:12:06 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4133 Squadrato--one thing we haven't considered is that she may not be a feminist, or in any case, feminist values may be superceded by her religious beliefs. In other words, her decision to accept a job at the seminary may have been motivated by the need for a job, but it may also have been the case that she believed in (most) of the values of that institution. I still think she deserves a fair shake as an employee. Equality before the law applies whether or not she is a feminist. And ej, you make a good point too, but we don't know that that's exactly what she did ("Klouda would have been better serve to anticipate opposition,"--well, but anticipating opposition in my opinion doesn't preclude legal action!) And Prof. Zero--you know too well whereof you speak about the treachery of Tenureland... Squadrato–one thing we haven’t considered is that she may not be a feminist, or in any case, feminist values may be superceded by her religious beliefs. In other words, her decision to accept a job at the seminary may have been motivated by the need for a job, but it may also have been the case that she believed in (most) of the values of that institution. I still think she deserves a fair shake as an employee. Equality before the law applies whether or not she is a feminist. And ej, you make a good point too, but we don’t know that that’s exactly what she did (”Klouda would have been better serve to anticipate opposition,”–well, but anticipating opposition in my opinion doesn’t preclude legal action!)

And Prof. Zero–you know too well whereof you speak about the treachery of Tenureland…

]]> By: Professor Zero http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4118 Professor Zero Tue, 25 Mar 2008 05:27:49 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4118 All the focus on what she did wrong or might have done wrong in not foreseeing this seems odd to me. It seems like saying, "oh it's not the system, it's that she didn't know how to play it, this wouldn't happen to me because I would be more savvy." But no - it's not that straightforward and friendly, tenureland isn't. All the focus on what she did wrong or might have done wrong in not foreseeing this seems odd to me. It seems like
saying, “oh it’s not the system, it’s that she didn’t know how to play it, this wouldn’t happen to me because I would be more savvy.” But no - it’s not that straightforward and friendly, tenureland isn’t.

]]> By: ej http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4075 ej Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:36:17 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4075 My knowledge of this case is limited to what Historiann tells us, but it seems to me that there are two issues here. The first is our willingness to "settle" for jobs even if they represent a compromise of our ethics. I fear that for many, reality is often at odds with our ideals. Even those stuck in undesirable positions cannot always look elsewhere-family commitments (a husband or sick relative) make moving difficult, and the market is such that even if one tries, it can still be impossible to find employment elsewhere. And if one's choice is a compromise position or leaving academia? I know that after 7 years of grad school and 8 years on the job, as a medievalist, I am qualified to do absolutely nothing outside of academia. How much of a choice is there here? That said, no one should ever take verbal assurances of tenure at face value. Unless her colleagues who assured her that it wouldn't be an issue were willing to leave a paper trail, I say she's naive to not anticipate a problem. The system is such that even the most qualified people who do everything they've been told can be denied tenure. Klouda would have been better serve to anticipate opposition, and breathe a sigh of relief if none came. My knowledge of this case is limited to what Historiann tells us, but it seems to me that there are two issues here. The first is our willingness to “settle” for jobs even if they represent a compromise of our ethics. I fear that for many, reality is often at odds with our ideals. Even those stuck in undesirable positions cannot always look elsewhere-family commitments (a husband or sick relative) make moving difficult, and the market is such that even if one tries, it can still be impossible to find employment elsewhere. And if one’s choice is a compromise position or leaving academia? I know that after 7 years of grad school and 8 years on the job, as a medievalist, I am qualified to do absolutely nothing outside of academia. How much of a choice is there here?

That said, no one should ever take verbal assurances of tenure at face value. Unless her colleagues who assured her that it wouldn’t be an issue were willing to leave a paper trail, I say she’s naive to not anticipate a problem. The system is such that even the most qualified people who do everything they’ve been told can be denied tenure. Klouda would have been better serve to anticipate opposition, and breathe a sigh of relief if none came.

]]> By: squadratomagico http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4071 squadratomagico Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:09:19 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4071 I think Nerdiah makes some excellent points. While I don't think Klouda's denial is an occasion for triumph, I do think there is ample room to question her choices, as well as the justice of the tenure decision and the legal upholding of it. This is not a case with a pure "heroine" being victimized; no one in this case seems very admirable to me. Yes, most academics are only offered one job at a time, and I can understand her taking such a position on a temporary basis. But I believe I can state unambiguously that I would find it an intolerable conflict with my own ethical standards to make a career at a place such as this one. I would work like hell to find another position. If unable to do so, I would leave academia rather than live with the shameful weight of furthering an agenda such as this one. I think Nerdiah makes some excellent points. While I don’t think Klouda’s denial is an occasion for triumph, I do think there is ample room to question her choices, as well as the justice of the tenure decision and the legal upholding of it. This is not a case with a pure “heroine” being victimized; no one in this case seems very admirable to me.

Yes, most academics are only offered one job at a time, and I can understand her taking such a position on a temporary basis. But I believe I can state unambiguously that I would find it an intolerable conflict with my own ethical standards to make a career at a place such as this one. I would work like hell to find another position. If unable to do so, I would leave academia rather than live with the shameful weight of furthering an agenda such as this one.

]]> By: Historiann http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4064 Historiann Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:00:19 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4064 That's the prize that everyone who "wins" hir tenure battle gets, no? (Yay? Congratulations?) Like you, GayProf, Historiann decided to "ease on down the road" from a bad first job, but others don't necessarily have the option... That’s the prize that everyone who “wins” hir tenure battle gets, no? (Yay? Congratulations?) Like you, GayProf, Historiann decided to “ease on down the road” from a bad first job, but others don’t necessarily have the option…

]]> By: GayProf http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4063 GayProf Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:55:50 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4063 Sometimes tenure is a funny prize. In the "best case scenario," she would have the honor of working at a university that stated explicitly that they didn't want her around. Sometimes tenure is a funny prize. In the “best case scenario,” she would have the honor of working at a university that stated explicitly that they didn’t want her around.

]]> By: Historiann http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4061 Historiann Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:32:32 +0000 http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/22/curiouser-and-curiouser-malice-in-tenureland/#comment-4061 Right on, James--I agree entirely. She wouldn't have a case if her complaint was that they wouldn't hire her, since that conflicts with their belief that women shouldn't instruct men in the classroom. But, having hired her, they owe her fair treatment, and it's not fair to retroactively remember that allowing women to instruct men is against their religious beliefs. There is a simple solution to this problem--don't hire women. I disagree with their beliefs (obviously), but I don't have a problem with a religious institutions so long as they're consistent in practicing what they say they believe. Right on, James–I agree entirely. She wouldn’t have a case if her complaint was that they wouldn’t hire her, since that conflicts with their belief that women shouldn’t instruct men in the classroom. But, having hired her, they owe her fair treatment, and it’s not fair to retroactively remember that allowing women to instruct men is against their religious beliefs. There is a simple solution to this problem–don’t hire women. I disagree with their beliefs (obviously), but I don’t have a problem with a religious institutions so long as they’re consistent in practicing what they say they believe.

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